How far can you see...or Where the @$&# did THAT shot come from?

[myradale]

Ok, about how far can a person see in moderate forests/plains etc?

I've got an archer/sorcerer NPC who's taken the Far Shot feat and is using a composite longbow.

He casts true strike (+20 to hit) and lets fly.

Now, the true strike counters the -20 he'd take from 10 range increments, allowing him to fire using normal bonuses at a range of 1650ft, or about half a kilometre (about 0.3 miles or 5.5 football fields)

Now, can the people he hits even SEE him at that range? Taking the normal spot rules for distance= A large object in plain sight (DC 0) -1 per 10ft of distance (-165) = not a chance anyone will see you. How would you rule this? He can hide (sniping) with a -20 to his check and still have NO chance of being detected. Even giving massive bonuses for the party knowing which direction the arrow came from, they're not going to be able to make even a DC 40 spot check.

By the RAW, if he catches them out in the open, he can just fire with impunity until he runs out of 1st level slots. Even the longest spells of the party can only reach 1000 ft (600ft +10 levels *40ft/level).

Any ideas?

 

[nak9788]

Ok, about how far can a person see in moderate forests/plains etc?

I've got an archer/sorcerer NPC who's taken the Far Shot feat and is using a composite longbow.

He casts true strike (+20 to hit) and lets fly.

Now, the true strike counters the -20 he'd take from 10 range increments, allowing him to fire using normal bonuses at a range of 1650ft, or about half a kilometre (about 0.3 miles or 5.5 football fields)

Now, can the people he hits even SEE him at that range? Taking the normal spot rules for distance= A large object in plain sight (DC 0) -1 per 10ft of distance (-165) = not a chance anyone will see you. How would you rule this? He can hide (sniping) with a -20 to his check and still have NO chance of being detected. Even giving massive bonuses for the party knowing which direction the arrow came from, they're not going to be able to make even a DC 40 spot check.

By the RAW, if he catches them out in the open, he can just fire with impunity until he runs out of 1st level slots. Even the longest spells of the party can only reach 1000 ft (600ft +10 levels *40ft/level).

Any ideas?

Well first ask the question of whether the archer can even see the target. The spell does not grant him the ability to see farther, only a more accurate shot. If he can see the target, it would make sense that target would be able to see him. Of course if he is camouflage, under cover, etc, the target should be given a Spot check to see him. If the arrow hit (or was a near miss), the target should notice the basic direction from where the arrow came from, but from that distance there should be a hefty penalty to see the shooter (use your judgement on how much).

 

[darkelfo]

One the worst convention games I ever played in involved the most of party being killed by an unseen archer. This was in AD&D days before the advent of the Spot skill, etc. The thing that pissed me of is that this smart @ss smikring "GM" wouldn't even tell us the direction the arrows were coming from.

My sense is that if you're walking in a straight line and you get hit by an arrow you generally know where it came from, if only because its sticking out of the left side of your neck. Call me cooky on that one.

 

[myradale]

Yeah, I'll have to GM it fairly carefully to avoid a completely unbalanced game.
What I was most interested in is if anyone knows about how far away you can see a person. And how much detail you can make out at that range.

I mean, half a kilometre is pretty far, but I'd imagine you'd still be able to make out that there WAS a person over there with a bow, but not a whole lot else.

 

[darkelfo]

Yeah, I'll have to GM it fairly carefully to avoid a completely unbalanced game.
What I was most interested in is if anyone knows about how far away you can see a person. And how much detail you can make out at that range.

I mean, half a kilometre is pretty far, but I'd imagine you'd still be able to make out that there WAS a person over there with a bow, but not a whole lot else.

I don't think you need a specific rule to make this determination. It will depend on cover. In a flat open space with no fog or brush, of course the sniper will be easy to spot. Wearing green, hiding up in a tree, at great distance etc., will make the Spot check to find the sniper very high.

I'm assuming the sniper has an absolutely clear line of sight to the targets, but might be able to get cover from their sniping perch. Just decide on a Spot DC based on these factors. Without a clear line of sight, the targets should get good cover as well.

But at a minimum, the targets will know the general direction of the source of the hail of arrows.

 

[Kobold Stew]

As Nak said, vision is two-way. But.

Assuming that the forest allows unfettered arrow flight of that distance, and ignoring the effects of magic...

in the real world, sniping in forests is really easy.

In the not-especially dense forests of the Pacific Northwest, for example, I have played a form of hide-and-seek with kids that is really sobering. The game goes like this. one person is "it" (in your example, the party). The other forty kids have a minute to hide, but MUST be physically looking at it (= your sniper). Now these are kids at summer camp, wearing reds and yellows, and decidedly non-forest colours, and, in a minute, they are for the most part invisible. It's job, without moving, is to find the hiders. Most are within 60 feet, and it can take a long time.

Now, the situation doesn't map exactly, of course. But even knowing the rough direction (the arrow is in my left arm, and so...) is not enough.

I'd say your archer has a great chance to get the first arrow off, and then gets great situational bonuses to spot checks in subsequent rounds. That is, if the party does not move. for, forests being what they are, if the party starts to hide, with any (unskilled) effort, they will foil the sniper pretty quick. So if they decide not to Spot but move 5' instead, the sniper's innate advantage is removed.

Magic, of course, changes everything. But I've been dumbstruck at an untrained individual's ability to stay out of sight at what D&D calls point blank range.

My 2cp.

Kobold Stew.

 

[moritheil]

Well, if it's a HAIL of arrows, that changes things as opposed to being just one arrow. I have to agree with KoboldStew that it may be pretty difficult to say exactly where something came from in terms of pinpointing an actual location.

For a single arrow, I would say it's really hard even just to see the general direction, especially if the arrow broke upon impact and you didn't see it while it was in the air. Subsequent attempts or multiple arrows should lower the DC.

In your example above, sure, if you were only headed in one direction, you got hit by an arrow, it remained in you, and you remained perfectly still, you would obviously know which direction the arrow came from. But if you got winged by an arrow, if it broke apart and you never saw it in flight, if the pain or surprise of being hit caused you to spin around a little or reflexively move, and so forth, then it might be much harder.

If the arrow was sticking out of your neck it would seem that you should be dead

You may want to ad hoc rule some sort of tiered DC system where if they make it within 20 of the Spot DC, they know if it came from some general direction (the char's right or left), but not where.

But at a minimum, the targets will know the general direction of the source of the hail of arrows.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Here is what will happen:

Your guy takes his shot, then hides with his -20 modifier. Spot checks are at a -165, so he basically cannot be seen.

His opponents, coming under fire from an unseen foe WILL THEN TAKE COVER or gain concealment..

At which point, he can't see them either - they can then hide and move away. He's got the -165 as well.

The only time you'll have a problem with this is when the DM determines that the PC's are travelling across an open, perfectly flat plain with no features whatsoever for the party to take cover behind. In which case they just cast a spell and create said cover/concealment.

 

[Zadam]

I think the real question here should be, if this is in a forest, could the Archer even get a line of sight at the target? I highly doubt that you could draw a straight line through half a kilometer of forest and not hit any trees/bushes/hills/etc. Most likely the targets would have at least 90-100% cover at such a range.

 

[Stalker0]

Use the encounter distances given in the dmg.

For a medium density forest....the spot distance is 2d8x10 ft (avg. 90 feet) pg. 87

In an open field....6d6x40 (avg. 840 ft) pg. 92.

So theoretically the maximum starting distance for any encounter is 980 ft.