How FAST should he turn evil? (Updated 2/9)

[Joshua Randall]

Both the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds have game information on what is an evil act versus a good act, in D&D terms. I cannot remember off hand if "merely" planning to kill people for personal benefit is defined as evil... but in my opinion it should be.

Let us also not forget that the PC in question has sold his soul to a fiend. In my opinion, in D&D game terms, the PC is now Neutral Evil.

In the interest of avoiding Yet Another Alignment Debate (tm), I will say nothing further on this topic.

 

[MerakSpielman]

My feeling is that people shouldn't forfeit their souls if they don't sign the contract of their own free will. Whats the point of devils being known for making contracts with "a fine print", if they can just *boom* charm someone into signing them?

This is how I would do it:

He was under duress. He did not, in fact, sell his soul to the Erinyes. She just convinced him that he did, and struck a deal with him to "get it back."

You have to understand, when dealing with devils, you can't trust a single thing they say.

He currently does not register as either good or evil, since he is at the crux of a moral dillema that will ultimately nudge him one way or the other.

The dagger is the temptation. By killing with the dagger, knowing that he's sending a soul to damnation, he actually turns evil and places his soul in jepardy. In this case, when he dies his soul will go to the same place he voluntarily sent the others. After all, killing people for the sole, selfish reason to regain your own soul is evil, no matter how you cut it. Those BoVD "extras" are just icing on the web of lies. He's evil if he uses the dagger, no matter how he goes about it.

If, on the other hand, he refrains from using the dagger, making the decision that he would rather lose his own soul than consign even a single evil person to damnation, then the onus is lifted and he becomes good again.

If he was really thinking about it, he'd know he still has his soul, since he's a) still alive - not dead or undead, and b) still capable of making conscious decisions about things like morality.

I'm assuming that he has no indication that his soul is gone other than the word of an Erinyes.

 

[Rel]

He was under duress. He did not, in fact, sell his soul to the Erinyes. She just convinced him that he did, and struck a deal with him to "get it back."

You have to understand, when dealing with devils, you can't trust a single thing they say.

Sick. I love it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I agree with Diaglo ... as soon as the deal was struck, he was Evil.

A couple of other points:
1) It doesn't matter what alignment the victim is when he sacrifices it; sacrificing Evil creatures doesn't get past the fact that he is killing others for his own benefit. That's Evil.

And an adventurer hunting for treasure that he knows to be guarded is doing precisely what?

The cleric killing undead in the service of his lord is doing that too.

"Killing stuff for your own benefit" is hardly a good metric for determining evil.

2) It is arguable that, as a non-Cleric, he'd almost never register on a detect evil spell. However, that dagger should be making the Cleric's head ache every time he uses the spell.

That was the first thing that sprung to my mind...

 

[Gothmog]

major disagreement form me.

he is not evil, he was charmed and therefore signed the contract under duress.

however, should he kill but on person, no matter how evil, with that dagger it is an immediate trip to wearing the black hat.

Gotta agree with alsih20, being charmed doesn't mean he is evil. Otherwise charming an evil guy and making him do "good" things would make him good.

If he does kill one creature with that dagger though, and knowingly sends their soul to hell, he is on a very slipperly slope down into damnation. One thing I would do is have the character start getting suggestions from the patron devil/dagger about who he should "do" next. Things like "That constable has no right to treat you that way. You are better than him. Teach him a lesson about humility." Well, maybe more eloquent and subtle than that, but you get the idea- these are devils. They have millenia to practice and hone their schemes, and a smart devil could wreak havoc with such a well-placed mole inside the "good" defenses. In fact, if the character was particularly efficient, the devil might give him an item to shield his alignment and that of the dagger. Then when the devil no longer had a use for the character, remove the powers of the item and leave him to his fate. Who said devils play fair?

 

[Zappo]

I love MerakSpielman's explanation!

IMO, he isn't evil yet, because he was under magical compulsion when he signed the contract. He's just stupid for having let the fiend ensnare him.

A nice way out could be to only use the dagger to kill other fiends. Killing a fiend isn't evil except in the most extreme circumstances; further, this prevents the "could be redeemable" argument. The last strike of the cursed dagger should be reserved for the Erinyes herself, on her own plane, after he's got a few more levels under his belt. That would simultaneously end his curse and prevent the fiend from using the souls to enter the Prime Material.

 

[Dakkareth]

Archdevils own the banking business ... I love it!

(ok, so it's only in hell, but still)

Mhhh ... how is killing an evil person the normal way (sending his soul to hell, where it belongs) different from killing an evil person with the dagger (sending his soul to hell, where it belongs)? Some devil is bound to profit from it, wouldn't it even be better to know, who it is, so you can thwart its schemes later?

What are the alternatives to using the dagger?

Have some cleric remove whatever it is doing the work behind the deal - unlikely, if it wasn't there'd be no point to such deals.

Kill the devil - would probably work unless she sold the 'mining rights' to someone else already. Might make for some plane-hopping goodness, but who knows, whether it does anything at all?

Do nothing - one solution but far from being desirable.


So the only way that seems both plausible and acceptable in terms of effect and cost is using the dagger. It would of course depend on the PCs actions to determine his descent to evil. If he decides, that slaying town people is faster and easier somewhere along the way, it's going to be fast. If tortured by the implications he uses it to kill the big villain threatening whatever villains threat these days, thus condemning him to hell as he'd done anyway simply to end this evil, it's going to be slower.

 

[Silveras]

I agree with Diaglo ... as soon as the deal was struck, he was Evil.

A couple of other points:
1) It doesn't matter what alignment the victim is when he sacrifices it; sacrificing Evil creatures doesn't get past the fact that he is killing others for his own benefit. That's Evil.

And an adventurer hunting for treasure that he knows to be guarded is doing precisely what?

That depends on what the treasure is, who is guarding it, and why the PC is hunting it. I presume you mean an adventurer wandering into random ruins in hopes of looting them ? That's Neutral, at best. If he's going to open otherwise-undisturbed tombs to do it, that's grave robbery, and is an Evil action. If, on the other hand, there are undead in the tombs and those undead attack the party, the PCs can claim to have won the treasure as "spoils of combat."

Characters who invade a foreign land, enter the homes of its inhabitants, kill said inhabitants, and loot the homes/bodies have done Evil. It does not matter what the alignment of the victims was in that sense.

The cleric killing undead in the service of his lord is doing that too.

Creating Undead is seen as an abomination, and most Clerics don't need to be told to destroy them (usually seen as freeing the soul and laying the undead to rest); this is usually considered "undoing a great evil". That's a good deal different than murdering people to send their souls to a fiend in order to get yours "back".

"Killing stuff for your own benefit" is hardly a good metric for determining evil.

On the contrary, it is an excellent metric.

Good=Selfless, does what it feels is right with little or no regard for personal cost. Making a (probably suicidal) stand against overwhelming odds so that others can get away is a prime example.

Evil=Selfish, does what it feels will gain it the maximum personal benefit regardless of the cost to others. Killing others for your own profit (paid assassin) is a prime example.

Neutral= Mix, does what it feels is right if the personal cost is not too high, or does something for its own advantage if the cost to others is not too high.

Alignment is as much, or more, about WHY you do something as it is about WHAT you do. Very few actions are definitively Evil; most depend on the WHY.

 

[Geoff Watson]

This is how I would do it:

He was under duress. He did not, in fact, sell his soul to the Erinyes. She just convinced him that he did, and struck a deal with him to "get it back."

You have to understand, when dealing with devils, you can't trust a single thing they say.

I agree. That's what I would have suggested, if you hadn't already done so.

Geoff.

 

[AnthonyJ]

The character probably immediately registers as evil (or tainted by evil) on spells that detect evil, as he's tainted by demonic power. However, a proper Atonement effort should allow reclaiming his soul. Possibly just a Remove Curse, depending on what you feel the actual effect being used by the Erinys was.

The first time he sacrifices anyone to his patron, he has now made a conscious choice towards evil, and should probably detect as not only tainted by evil, but actually evil. This is equivalent to the situation for lycanthropy, where the first time you deliberately take on lycanthropic form you acquire the alignment of the lycanthrope.

At such point as he completes 'buying' his soul back, he has effectively completely a quest associated with alignment change, and a quest of similar magnitude will be required to atone.

Incidentally, if he completes his 'buy his soul back' quest, he'll almost certainly be offered additional benefits if he just keeps that dagger and keeps up the 'good' work