How Fleshed out IS PoL going to be?

[I'm A Banana]

Yes, but, you just answered your own concern. We ignore why elves hate orcs already. Or justify it any number of ways. However, there is still the mechanical effects. Take dwarves for example. Why do dwarves get +1 attacks vs orcs, but elves don't? Since elves hate orcs, shouldn't they get the bonus?

I wouldn't be surprised in 4e if dwarves don't have that bonus. I certainly never really regarded it. But even if you do pay attention to it, again that's just "dwarves fight orcs." Elves might not have that specific bonus, but that doesn't suddenly invalidate "elves hate orcs" as a trope of the game.

So I guess I don't understand how in a bit of 3e mechanics I answered my own concern...? Or that I even had a concern...?

Homebrewers will always ignore the flavor text they don't want to use. It makes absolutely no difference what the flavor text is. You could easily say that elves hate orcs means that adventures will focus on going into orcish strongholds, defending against orcish attacks, etc.

If flavor=influence on campaigns, then different flavor doesn't matter. It all influences.

You seem to be under the impression that all flavor is created equally.

This is incorrect.

"Elves hate orcs" is basically a fantasy archetype. Any time elves and orcs are in a setting, you can bet that they're not exactly on friendly terms unless the setting is specifically going for the anti-archetype. Mechanics based on that leave questions about why open-ended enough that a worldbuilder fan fill in the gaps without treading on the mechanics (unless they specifically try to go against the archetype). It doesn't matter if the Corellon/Grummsh/Eye-Poke thing is true or if it's because orcs are corrupted versions of elves or if the orcs just like to burn down forests and the elves are ecologically protective, or what. It leaves a lot of room open for a DM to tell their own story.

"Tieflings are the descendants of those who made pacts with devils in an ancient empire" is NOT a fantasy archetype. Just like "Golden Wyvern Adept" is NOT a fantasy archetype. The existence of tieflings and ancient empires and devils don't automatically inform each other like that. Mechanics based on a specific fallen ancient empire that made pacts with devils and yeilded tielfings are NOT very portable if your tieflings are genetic mutants, or if your ancient empire didn't deal with devils. To port over one, you have to port over the whole inter-dependant story, and it closes off a DM's own explanation as to why the tieflings are who they are. The mechanics based on that explanation are conceptually difficult to deal with when homebrewing -- why my tieflings who are genetic experiments should get a feat that allows them to write magical contracts that steal people's souls is rather difficult to explain, and if I have to disallow the feat because I changed the flavor, I've impacted the race's power level, and now tieflings are either weaker than normal because I have to disallow many of their fluff-dependant feats, or I have to make up a whole new batch of feats for them to take, take the time and effort to design and balance them, and then inform every tiefling player that my tiefling is pretty much purely a homebrew, likely cautioning them against it unless I'm a paid game designer.

Unless, of course, the orcs are no longer evil nasty guys that go around pillaging and destroying. Thus, the flavor in the MM and PHB no longer applies. Maybe it's elves in my campaign that are destructive, evil bastards a la Melniboneans. The existence of flavor in the elf description in now way prevents me from doing that.

Nor will the existence of ties between tieflings and demons prevent me from turning around and saying, no, Tieflings in my world are the result of pacts with genies. Or, maybe Tieflings are simply Gods Blessed and go from there.

I mean, if Darksun could turn halflings into cannibalistic psychopaths, I'm thinking that it's not all that difficult to chuck flavor.

The more the flavor influences the mechanics, the names of feats, and the rules of the game, the harder it is to chuck it. If the flavor is fairly archetypal ("noble knights will defend the kingdom!"), it's not a problem because it gives you a point that you can write flavor around. If the flavor is specific, new, and narrow, it is a problem because it "clings" to other mechanics throughout the rulebooks.

The flavor of 4e is pretty obviously influencing the mechanics. As my point in the post above, the "design weight" is on the WotC-created flavor for the tieflings, not on the generic, archetypal qualities of a fiendish humanoid.

If my 4e halflings have a Swim speed or a bonus on Swim checks, they're going to be that much harder to convert to Darksun (or any other setting). If, as halflings advance in level, they have feats that give them gills and faster swim speeds and their own personal watercraft, that will make it MORE difficult to convert to Darksun (or any other setting). If, later, a halfling can take a paragon path that lets them befriend crocodiles, this is making it more and more difficult to convert to any other setting.

Yet these are all mechanics that make perfect sense for a core PHB halfling that plies the rivers of the world. If the design weight is on this, then it is on the unique flavor of the setting, which makes the setting more interesting, but makes it harder to disentangle for homebrew use.

That's the thing with having a strong core setting. The stronger it is, the harder it is to homebrew from that base. It's not a matter of fluff vs. crunch. The fluff informs the crunch, and the more specific the fluff is, the more closely related the crunch will be, and thus it becomes more difficult to disentangle the two when you replace the fluff with something else.

And more work to make the game your own blows donkeys when for 30 years it's been much more of a process of just asking "why" to various archetypal fantasy archetypes raised in the core (generally speaking, of course).

 

[Bavix]

They'd have to be stupid

WotC would have to be stupid not to make a 4th core book—a gazetteer of the D&D world. New players can pick up the PHB, DMG, and MM but what the heck do they do then. D&D desperately needs a supported core world and, by supported, I mean a well-rounded gazetteer that isn't smacked by constant meta-plot interruptions and reinterpretations. The default "points of light" gazetteer needs to be a single reference that doesn't change. WotC can release articles expanding the world in Dragon magazine, but most of the detail needs to come from adventures (Dungeon magazine and published).

If WotC published a new D&D Gazetteer for the "points of light" settinig like the Greyhawk Gazetteer I'd buy it in a second.

 

[Wormwood]

1. I don;t know---nobody really does.

2. I hope it is detailed enough that I can run a campaign out of the box, supplemented by modules, and not feel like I'm playing in a vacuum.

Honestly, I can't think of many (non-toolbox) RPGs without some setting information in the core book.

 

[Crashy75]

I think it's best to use what they've already given us and extrapolate. Below I'll post the elf crunch given by WotC. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221
I left out most of the fluff because the idea is to create one's own fluff and alter the mechanics accordingly. I bolded the elf abilities. Let me know if I missed anything.


Elf
Racial Traits

Average Height: 5' 7"-6' 0"
Average Weight: 100-130 lb.

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception

Elven Accuracy
Elf Racial Power

With an instant of focus, you take careful aim at your foe and strike with the legendary accuracy of the elves.

Encounter
Free Action
Personal

Effect: Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it's lower.

Elven Weapon Training: You gain proficiency with the longbow and the shortbow.

Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares).

Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks.

Elven Accuracy: You can use elven accuracy as an encounter power.

FEAT:

Elven Precision [Elf]

Prerequisites: Elf, elven accuracy racial power, heroic tier
Benefit: When you use the elven accuracy power, you gain a +2 bonus to the new attack roll.

 

[Remathilis]

Just like "Golden Wyvern Adept" is NOT a fantasy archetype.

So, who had 21 posts in the "Before Golden Wyvern Adept gets mentioned" Pool?

Back to the OP, I'm actually quite interested to see what other info W&M presents on the "world" aspect. I think a fairly generic (IE, maybe some names or a sample kingdom) map and some generic time-line stuff (tieflings before dragonborn or vice-versa?) comes in the DMG. Next to the sample town.

From a Beginner DM's standpoint, its easier to modify something (or use it as a template) than to try to create whole cloth. BECMI did that fabulously with Mystara (and my homebrew world reflects this) but 3e dropped the ball royally with Greyhawk (two OoP Gazetteers in the beginning, and a couple veiled references later). So I hope there is a touch more "world at large" info on the default setting than the dungeon, the town, and the implied backgrounds for all the races and monsters...

 

[Blackwind]

My guess is that WotC wants to promote FR as their main setting for 'vanilla' fantasy, with Eberron as the quirky alternative. The PoL setting will be left mostly undeveloped, except as a backdrop and implied setting for core adventures and splatbooks. WotC probably knows well enough not to compete with itself.

OTOH, they've said they're going to come out with a new setting each year, right? How long do they plan on keeping up that pace? More than two years sounds like a bad idea.

 

[Glyfair]

OTOH, they've said they're going to come out with a new setting each year, right? How long do they plan on keeping up that pace? More than two years sounds like a bad idea.

For a setting that will be fully supported, like Eberron & Forgotten Realms have been, I'd agree. For a setting that will get a campaign setting book and maybe one or two other support books that year, I'd disagree.

 

[WayneLigon]

"Tieflings are the descendants of those who made pacts with devils in an ancient empire" is NOT a fantasy archetype.

Yes, actually it is. There's any number of books about somewhat similar things. Races and people getting cursed because of pacts they made are as old as Howard. In fact, I'll say it's much more of an archtype than 'orcs hate elves'. 'Orcs hate Elves' isn't so much a fantasy archtype as lazy writers who ripped off Tolkien. It's a fantasy gaming archtype because of most of them wanting to copy D&D, which copied Tolkien.

 

[Glyfair]

'Orcs hate Elves' isn't so much a fantasy archtype as lazy writers who ripped off Tolkien.

I agree with this. Orcs in anything today were drawn either directly or indirectly from Tolkein. I don't think very many people draw orcs from the mythological basis (in fact, when I was in school I saw a book of mythological creatures that described the orc as a sea monster with the head of a boar). That's where the elves vs. orcs stereotype slipped in.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yes, actually it is. There's any number of books about somewhat similar things. Races and people getting cursed because of pacts they made are as old as Howard. In fact, I'll say it's much more of an archtype than 'orcs hate elves'. 'Orcs hate Elves' isn't so much a fantasy archtype as lazy writers who ripped off Tolkien. It's a fantasy gaming archtype because of most of them wanting to copy D&D, which copied Tolkien.

But there is a point of specificity. A nation of the accursed who messed with Things Man Was Not Meant To Mess With is fine. It's "somewhat similar" without being specifically about one specific race, one specific empire, and a specific version of Things Man Was Not Meant To Mess With.

"Orcs Hate Elves" isn't very specific. It doesn't say why, for instance. It doesn't say if elves hate orcs back, or if they're ambivalent. It doesn't say what form this hatred takes in Orc culture (do they burn effigies? do they have elf sacrifices?), or if it is recent or ancient, or much, really, beyond an instinctive emotion for one race against another. It leaves a lot of room for individual interpretation. In my campaign, it can be because elves, given the chance, will eat the flesh of orcs. In yours, it can be because orcs are corrupted versions of elves. It doesn't matter for the mechanics.

Similarly, a "tieflings are a cursed race from a fallen empire" isn't very specific. It doesn't say what the Empire's name was, who it's enemies were, the years it existed, why it fell, who cursed them, or if the curse takes a specific form or varies from tiefling to tiefling. Of course, that's still more specific than "tieflings are humans who are tainted with evil," which doesn't tell us if they have an empire, if they're just unlucky, if they live next to a hellmouth, if their race is cursed, if they're just distantly related to a succubus, etc. Still, "Tieflings are a cursed race from a fallen empire" is fine in a way that "Devils cursed the Empire of Bael Turath's nobles, who were fighting with the dragonborn empire, after the nobles dealt with them in order to secure their victory over their military enemies, resulting in an inherited curse that causes them to have red skin, horns, and a tail" isn't.

Likewise, when Tolkein's cosmology and inspiration for the orc/elf conflict is distilled down to it's base essence, it becomes a lot more portable, more easily adaptable to a large variety of settings.

And a lot of that depends on where they stick the "design weight." It sounds like they'd stick it in the more developed aspects of the setting rather than the lesser because otherwise the development doesn't have much of a purpose. In addition, they seem to want to provide a lot of the new crunch "in situ," ready to roll right out, which mandates a fairly developed setting. Other game elements like "Golden Wyvern Adept" show that the team is definitely thinking in terms of putting a lot of interdependence in fluff and crunch already. It's a reasonable fear that if the "Points of Light" setting is too fleshed out that DMing a homebrew may become much more onerous in this edition than it was in the last. If WotC is smart, they will place much more design weight on the generalities of the race than the specificities of that race in their setting, but they have a difficult balancing act, because they still need to provide enough of a motivating setting to use right out of the gate.