D&D 5E How is 5th edition in respects to magic item creation?

[Staffan]

5th edition may talk about items, their prices and their creation; but doesn't even come anywhere NEAR to providing actual support for a world that operates like a 3rd edition one did.

You mean like this?

 

[TwoSix]

The bigger picture issue is that magic item creation rules add an additional layer of granularity to player-driven customization, a type of customization which is notably lessened in 5e compared to 3.5/PF and 4e. Ultimately, whether you want to support that or not in your game is a personal preference. To my mind, it seems like a preference that's common enough that some support for it, even via a UA or a DMs Guild release, would be nice.

 

[Jester David]

Then please don't speak for those that do.

If you absolutely must claim 5e has a functional magic item economy, please qualify that by adding "but not in any way, shape or form like the one I KNOW you are asking about"

Because that's my beef with you and anyone making the same claims you make.

You KNOW the person asking about "is there a functional magic item economy?" is talking about it from a 3rd edition perspective, because that's the edition that introduced one.

Wait... who asked "is there a functional magic item economy?"

Any why is essential that the game have a magic item creation industry anyway? That happens behind the scenes. The PCs aren't making and selling magic items for a profit. They're adventurers, not blacksmiths. How does it matter how the NPC storekeeper gets their stock and makes a profit?

WOTC claimed 5th edition is great for supporting ANY old edition (with the possible exception of 4e, which they have finally started to admit it actually doesn't)

This is pure faff. Marketing speak.

There is nothing AT ALL in 5e to support the utility-based pricing mechanism (as opposed to rarity-based) of magic items, 3e style. Preferably complete with pricing formulas for individual power components, so you can derive the final item pricing.

Then you are perfectly within your right to believe this to be a good thing.

Just don't perpetuate the phony sales pitch that 5e does 3e, because until there's a utility-based magic item economy, there's a gaping big hole in that support.

Oh lord... you and Tony Vargas.
Wizards of the Coast NEVER claimed 5th edition was "great for supporting ANY old edition". That was people on message boards blowing an offhand comment Mike Meals made once in a Design & Development article waaaaay out of proportion. That's not marketing. And it wasn't a "promise" like you have claimed multiple times.

It was a design goal. An ambition for the then yet unfinished final product (which I believe was still a couple years from competition at the time of the statement). They (read: Mearls) wanted DMs running 5e able to make the game feel like people were playing whatever edition they wanted. They wanted players of any edition to sit down at a table of 5e and see something familiar in the rules and characters.
Which was immediately taken and twisted into thoughts that 5e would be backwards compatible with other editions or that you could play characters from any edition in 5e... Or, as you demonstrate, blown up in significance into a blood oath by the marketing department that 5th Edition would support all aspects of play seen in past editions...

And 5e can feel a lot like 3e. There is a lot of 3e-isms in its DNA. The magic item treadmill just isn't part of that.

 

[CapnZapp]

Any why is essential that the game have a magic item creation industry anyway? That happens behind the scenes. The PCs aren't making and selling magic items for a profit. They're adventurers, not blacksmiths. How does it matter how the NPC storekeeper gets their stock and makes a profit?

Now I KNOW you are wilfully misunderstanding me.

If you were honestly having a debate with me you would never interpret me as meaning any in-game industry when I use the phrase "magic item creation".

To any observer it is completely obvious I am talking about Dungeon Masters (and players, and adventure writers) creating magic items and using guidelines to set a price based on utility.

I can't believe I have to explain this to you. So far you've always come across as a person who knew what you were talking about (but didn't like).

But here goes:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/blades/index.html
The link goes to Sean K Reynolds, and specifically to how he creates magic weapons for 3.5 by adding up various properties and creating a backstory. Just as an example of the rules in action, by a major WotC contributor of the time.

But the most important piece of the puzzle is the stuff in red; that the D&D rules actually tell him what the final base cost of the weapon is. That is, the item's power expressed in gold - whether a given shop will charge this amount, or ten times as much, or something else is an entirely different issue.

The real importance of this is that it gives an outlet for looted gold without requiring any downtime to speak of - just pop into the Magic Shoppe when you're back in town anyway and buy yourself a new shiny.

Nothing wrong with carousing or donating money or building wizard towers - but downtime is something many groups don't use. When one adventure is finished, the next begins. If you run published modules, somebody is threatening to destroy the world, so it isn't even appropriate to take any frivolous downtime.

Not providing any "uptime money sink" is a considerable weakness of 5th edition. At least if you boast a good ability to run previous-edition stuff and/or support campaigns run in a previous-edition atmosphere.

Not to mention how many player find it VERY FUN to have something to spend their gold on!

 

[Jester David]

Now I KNOW you are wilfully misunderstanding me.

If you were honestly having a debate with me you would never interpret me as meaning any in-game industry when I use the phrase "magic item creation".

To any observer it is completely obvious I am talking about Dungeon Masters (and players, and adventure writers) creating magic items and using guidelines to set a price based on utility.

I can't believe I have to explain this to you. So far you've always come across as a person who knew what you were talking about (but didn't like).

But here goes:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/blades/index.html
The link goes to Sean K Reynolds, and specifically to how he creates magic weapons for 3.5 by adding up various properties and creating a backstory. Just as an example of the rules in action, by a major WotC contributor of the time.

But the most important piece of the puzzle is that the D&D rules actually tell him what the final base cost of the weapon is. That is, the item's power expressed in gold - whether a given shop will charge this amount, or ten times as much, or something else is an entirely different issue.

Okay. Fine.
But that system in 3e never worked. It was a huge time sink that gave you a price that didn't really match how useful the item was at the table, how valuable it was to the players, and how likely it would be to be bought. And it assumed all feats were of the same value, all spells of a given level had the same benefit, and all skills were equally beneficial.
3e was filled with items that nobody ever bought because the cost vs the usefulness was skewed. And lots of great items - like staves - ended up ridiculously overpriced.

The 3e rules were a huge trap. Like level adjustment. It was a pit unwary DMs and players could fall into and bork their game. The game always required some actual game design to look at the item, created and decide if it actually worked at that price.
I mean, c'mon, is an item that gives you the Actor feat really equal in gp price to one that gives you Sharpshooter? Is an item that conveys the continual benefits of disguise self equal in power to at-will magic missiles?

Heck, even in 3e the later designers gave up and threw out those rules. Most of the items in the Magic Item Compendium don't use that math.

There's advice in the DMG on pricing magic items. And it's great, giving a solid ballpark for determining rarity. Because like designing a race or a class or a spell there's no magical formula of check boxes you can tick to design something that works. Which is why the race builder in Pathfinder is a munchkin's dream and the rules for building classes in 2nd Edition DMG just don't work.

The real importance of this is that it gives an outlet for looted gold without requiring any downtime to speak of - just pop into the Magic Shoppe when you're back in town anyway and buy yourself a new shiny.

Nothing wrong with carousing or donating money or building wizard towers - but downtime is something many groups don't use. When one adventure is finished, the next begins. If you run published modules, somebody is threatening to destroy the world, so it isn't even appropriate to take any frivolous downtime.

Except that it was a mandated outlet. There literally was something wrong with carousing or donating money or building a tower because that was akin to not taking a feat or learning the next level of spells. It deliberately hindered your character's power level and skewed your Wealth By Level.

Not providing any "uptime money sink" is a considerable weakness of 5th edition. At least if you boast a good ability to run previous-edition stuff and/or support campaigns run in a previous-edition atmosphere.

Not to mention how many player find it VERY FUN to have something to spend their gold on!

Right. But you can still have magic item shops in the game. That doesn't go away, it just becomes an optional encounter rather than a mandated one.
Buying items just changes the power level of the characters and requires harder encounters. (Which you must be okay with, since you were advocating breaking wealth by level necessitating making encounters easier.)

 

[Ancalagon]

I see the lack of 3.x precise magical items builds, costs and availability as not a bug but a feature.

 

[Jester David]

But here goes:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/blades/index.html
The link goes to Sean K Reynolds, and specifically to how he creates magic weapons for 3.5 by adding up various properties and creating a backstory. Just as an example of the rules in action, by a major WotC contributor of the time.

That link is actually a perfect example of the problems with 3e magic item design.

"Here's a weapon blessed by the gods It's a unique item with a history and special lineage... but any 9th level caster can just churn it out."

There's Forge's Clamor http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/blades/html/gondforgesclamor.html
Which is a +1 thundering shortsword with a hilt that acts as a bag of holding. But for the price of the sword, you could just buy a +1 thundering shortsword and TWO regular bags of holding.

And Death's Judgement http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/blades/html/kelemvordeathsjudgement.html
Originally used by a level 17 cleric fighter despite being vastly undervalued for a character of that level. Given it's undead bane property through a story moment, when in play it'd mostly be done in a camp somewhere as the party wizard threw gp at the item until it became more magical.
And, again, it replicates the abilities of another item (yawn) but does so at increased cost.


It's frankly amazing how many items in that blog break his RPG Superstar design advice:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lhvc?Wondrous-Item-Autoreject-Advice

Because there's a hard formula to stick to, the rules encourage you to basically combine magical effects and create cookie cutter items. Because creating your own unique powers to items isn't possible, as there's no associated math.
It's like a random loot generator in a videogame (Diablo or Borderlands) where it takes a list of abilities and throws them randomly into a single item. It discourages creativity in creating magical items and encourages min-maxing.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I see the lack of 3.x precise magical items builds, costs and availability as not a bug but a feature.

Somebody always does. Thats the real 'bug' - where the system is meant to provide the DM latitude and flexibility to run the game in styles 'supported,' by any past edition, it instead not only defaults to the classic styles (virtually across the board), but (in this instance) offers no path to any alternative.

IMHO, magic items overwhelming player resources like class, and commoditized make/buy are both pretty horrible approaches, so in 5e I wash my hands of 'em. The tin says they're 'not assumed,' so..

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay. Fine.
But that system in 3e never worked. It was a huge time sink that gave you a price that didn't really match how useful the item was at the table, how valuable it was to the players, and how likely it would be to be bought. And it assumed all feats were of the same value, all spells of a given level had the same benefit, and all skills were equally beneficial.
3e was filled with items that nobody ever bought because the cost vs the usefulness was skewed. And lots of great items - like staves - ended up ridiculously overpriced.

The 3e rules were a huge trap. Like level adjustment. It was a pit unwary DMs and players could fall into and bork their game. The game always required some actual game design to look at the item, created and decide if it actually worked at that price.
I mean, c'mon, is an item that gives you the Actor feat really equal in gp price to one that gives you Sharpshooter? Is an item that conveys the continual benefits of disguise self equal in power to at-will magic missiles?

Heck, even in 3e the later designers gave up and threw out those rules. Most of the items in the Magic Item Compendium don't use that math.

There's advice in the DMG on pricing magic items. And it's great, giving a solid ballpark for determining rarity. Because like designing a race or a class or a spell there's no magical formula of check boxes you can tick to design something that works. Which is why the race builder in Pathfinder is a munchkin's dream and the rules for building classes in 2nd Edition DMG just don't work.


Except that it was a mandated outlet. There literally was something wrong with carousing or donating money or building a tower because that was akin to not taking a feat or learning the next level of spells. It deliberately hindered your character's power level and skewed your Wealth By Level.


Right. But you can still have magic item shops in the game. That doesn't go away, it just becomes an optional encounter rather than a mandated one.
Buying items just changes the power level of the characters and requires harder encounters. (Which you must be okay with, since you were advocating breaking wealth by level necessitating making encounters easier.)

You're mixing two messages.

That you don't like it, see no value in it or think it doesn't work is a perfectly alright opinion to have.

Claiming 5e supports it, or an equivalent replacement, couldn't be further from the truth.

There's NOTHING to spend your tens of thousands of gold on in 5th edition, unless you take a break from saving the world from Tiamat or Acererak to do downtime, and I can't even begin to THINK how many years of wining and dining you need to spend.

So no, don't claim 5e has a magic item economy, because what it does have makes no sense and can't be used to actually make or buy or price items in any practical sense.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[CapnZapp]

I see the lack of 3.x precise magical items builds, costs and availability as not a bug but a feature.

Thank you.

I might not agree, but at least you're presenting a fair assessment of what 5th edition offers.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app