D&D 5E How it plays vs How it feels and looks

[howandwhy99]

I don't think this is much of a problem. If they were comfortable dumping the stat initially, they were planning on playing in such a way that Strength is of minimal use. How much are they going to shift to using it when equipped with the belt of giant strength? Is the Strength 8 wizard going to suddenly become a tank because his strength shot up to 25? Unlikely... but if he did, at least he's no longer casting all those powerful spells, right? It's not like the switch to melee brute doesn't come with a trade-off.

To be fair, Guantlets of Ogre Strength granted 18/00 strength, so whatever the previous rates the wearer had +2 to hit & (i think) +4 damage on all melee attacks. That's something, though armor proficiency isn't part of the package.

Besides treasure and equipment loss / usage, I don't think we're talking about how stat modifiers can now have a much larger influence than class, at least at lower levels, on a lot of what defines class. AC, attacks, damage, hit points, and so on.

 

[GreyICE]

The logical answer of course is to make every caster quite niche. I know we've pretty well sorted that out before though.

Mage tried, it really did. It turns out niche gods are, well, gods. They ended up taking a pickax to their own system in the reboot just to fix some of the balance issues they'd created, and add back in some challenge.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Mage tried, it really did. It turns out niche gods are, well, gods. They ended up taking a pickax to their own system in the reboot just to fix some of the balance issues they'd created, and add back in some challenge.

Well, clearly there's a point where 'niche' barely matters anymore. If my niche is summoning demon lords to do my bidding, well, that ain't much of a limitation. OTOH D&D-like specialist wizards COULD work. They can be powerful, but VERY limited. Just make sure that aside from a very few "needed to do magic" basic spells (dispel, detect, etc) ALL you get is stuff in your niche, and that stuff is nice but not game breaking. It can be VERY nice and even pretty amazingly nice at high levels, but you'll always need the rest of the party if say all you can do is toss out some nasty evocations then you won't be stepping on the whole rest of the party, etc.

 

[GameDoc]

What I want out of D&D Next's magic items is a renewed sense that items are not regular power-ups on the route to higher level. I want a renewed sense that they are not an entitlement but a reward, usually serendipitous, for adventuring and surviving. I want a renewed sense that players can't safely plan for particular magic items unless they play through quests for obtain them (though I accept that payment in advance is also acceptable as in the case of Perseus being equipped with magic items in order to accomplish the quest of killing Medusa or Frodo being equipped by Galadriel to sneak into Mordor).

I think some of this is being accomplished by not having magic weapons and armor grant anything more than a +1 bonus so as to never overshadow the effects of a high ability score or level-granted attack bonus.

I'd be okay if we dropped even the +1 bonus and just focused on other magical properties. Magic armor and shields weighing less or imposing lesser penalties to speed or ability checks are a good general benefit. A magic weapon granting a bonus to initiative rolls as opposed to attack and damage would be a other example. Or that magic weapons can overcome damage resistance.

A magic sword that sheds light on command is alot cooler when you don't have to think about it being a low end or "starter" item that you'll need to replace later.

 

[italianranma]

In response to an earlier post about weapons. I'm in the process of making my own version of D&D Next for my own table, and one of the things I'm working on is having a lot of differentiation in weapons. You're right: there are only a few properties that you can manipulate with attack bonus, damage, crit numbers, handedness, etc. Even tweaking all those doesn't really give players a feeling that their weapons are all that different from eachother. What I've done is to borrow a concept from Guild Wars II where each weapon has it's own kinds of attacks.

In my game axes and swords deal the same damage (depending on what category they're in, 2handed or off-hand etc.) but the axes commonly cause the crippled condition (1/2 move speed) and swords can be used to perform parries or counter attacks. There's a lot more at work based on some other systems that I have in place, but I'd be happy to share via private message.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Honestly, in terms of weapons and armor, I'd rather return to a more abstract level of representation ala OD&D. Just have None, Light, Medium, and Heavy. You can call them whatever (Leather, Chain, and Plate) and throw in shields, now you've got as much armor as you need. Weapons can all do the same damage (frees up that dimension for use in other ways too) etc. This allows for a lot more leeway for players to use what works for their character's flavor, and makes it VERY easy to drop specials on various weapons (so rogues can do backstab with daggers etc and nobody has to worry about adding 'rogue weapon tactics' to up the base damage etc).

You end up with a simpler CORE but you can always layer more complexity back on if you want using masterwork, enchantments, weapon specializations and fighting styles, etc.

IMHO that would fit best with the DDN goals, allowing a full range of LOD from OD&D core 3 book level to 3e/4e level.

I think too much detail for the sake of having complicated numbers and finicky subsystems just gets in the way of player creativity. That was the beauty of OD&D really. It had some rather crappy mechanics, but conceptually it is a very solid game that goes directly to what it wants to do and eschews anything extraneous.

 

[RedShirtNo5.1]

I know there are a lot of people ...

I agree with much of that.
May simply be an issue of meaning of "defining." I think in 3E characters are less defined by their items. I remember 1e discussions of "My wizard who found a wand of lightning bolts" or "My fighter who got a girdle of giant strength." In 3e IME you were more likely to hear "My wizard incantrix" or "My fighter with the trip build." IMO in 3e items were less of a defining feature, due to presence of build options, but also I think due to a combination of item power being tied to wealth by level and stacking resulting in people carrying large number of individually less powerful things (e.g., the +2 shield, +2 armor, +2 deflection ring, +2 natural armor amulet, etc.). I like having fewer items that are more powerful. But that makes "My fighter who got a girdle of giant strength" more likely. Not necessarily unsolvable but a balancing act.

 

[RedShirtNo5.1]

Here's another one, maybe more setting related.

I want gods to have active involvement with their clergy, but I also want priests who secretly worship demons etc.

 

[GameDoc]

Here's another one, maybe more setting related.

I want gods to have active involvement with their clergy, but I also want priests who secretly worship demons etc.

That's a tough one. You have to really consider to what degree the gods are omnipotent/omniscient with regards to their clerics. You'd think even a deity who is not all-seeing would notice a taint on your soul during your morning prayers when you commune with it to get your spells.

Would you consider "active involvement" to include the use of intermediates like angels or saints that appear on behalf of the deity?

 

[Minigiant]

Here's another one, maybe more setting related.

I want gods to have active involvement with their clergy, but I also want priests who secretly worship demons etc.

Yes this one is tough.

Like [MENTION=53915]GameDoc[/MENTION] said, you have to determine how much your deities know about their clerics.

For example, deities avatars can read their cleric's thoughts well granting spells but the deepness of perception is determined by focus. An avatar with a lot of clerics will not peer though every cleric's, mind without a reason. So a cleric who lays low can snag magic from multiple sources but high bishop might get a weekly inspection.