How Long Do TWF Penalties Last?

[Panask]

Suppose I attack with a quartestaff, using it as a double weapon, with all appropriate penalites for two-weapon fighting. Then, before my next turn, I get an Attack of Opportunity on an opponent. Can I attack using the quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon for the AoO? And do the TWF penalties still apply?

Thanks in advance.

Panask
Servitar to Baldur

 

[Ruvion]

From SRD:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

Emphasis mine.
If you get the benefit for 1 round...wouldn't you also get its penalty as well for the same duration? Sounds fair to me.

 

[Shin Okada]

AFAIK the written rules are unclear about this topic. Some DMs say if you attacked with 2 weapons in your turn, you continue to use weapons in that way until your next turn. Other DMs say you can "switch" your style as a free action at the end of your turn.

 

[Pickaxe]

Emphasis mine.
If you get the benefit for 1 round...wouldn't you also get its penalty as well for the same duration? Sounds fair to me.

Yet abilities like Combat Expertise include language that specifically says that the penalty lasts the whole round; there's no such language here. I also don't see the "per round" as necessarily meaning that it affects the entire round, any more than "one Quickened spell per round" does. I've always considered the penalties to only apply when you take the full attack action to attack with two weapons. The rules, however, do seem to be less clear than they could be.

To me, it seems more fair for the penalties to apply only to when you actually attack with two weapons (i.e., when you use the full attack action). The extra attack is balanced by the penalties to hit. Combat Expertise and Power Attack, on the other hand, have benefits that could extend beyond the character's turn (multiple opponents attacking the character for CE, AoO for PA), and they are balanced by the penalties extending throughout the round as well.

--Axe

 

[KarinsDad]

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

Notice that the word "attacks" is plural. You could rule "attacks" to mean only those due to a BAB of 6 or higher, but that is not explicitly stated. To me, "attacks" means all attacks. Since it is also in the same paragraph as the phrase "per round", it also implies that this is a per round set of conditions.

Between that and the similar rule rule (for Power Attack and Combat Expertise, other abilities that decrease the to hit), it is enough to rule that it does extend throughout the entire round.

I also think that because of this, you can get an advantage with two weapon fighting during an AoO that you cannot get with a single weapon: using the appropriate weapon for the job.

If you have, for example, a Cold Iron dagger in your off hand and a Magic rapier in your main hand, you can decide with your AoO whether to use Cold Iron against some opponents or Magic against others.

If you do not allow the penalty throughout the entire round, then you should not allow the character to attack with the off hand weapon on an AoO either.

AFAIK the written rules are unclear about this topic. Some DMs say if you attacked with 2 weapons in your turn, you continue to use weapons in that way until your next turn. Other DMs say you can "switch" your style as a free action at the end of your turn.

If you allow the character to switch the style at the end of the round as a free action, the character should not be able to attack with the off hand between turns.

Personally, I consider allowing this a loophole. If the character is actually attacking with two weapon on round one and round two, there is no "time between turns" from the perspective of the character for which he could switch styles. In my game, if I allowed him to switch styles at the end of round one, he would have to use that style in round two since I would not allow him to switch it back as a free action at the beginning of round two.

This is metagaming and rules abuse. IMO.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Don't forget, there is a feat that allows you to attack with both weapons at the same time during an AoO. So make sure whatever you rule isn't redundant to that feat.

For simplicities sake, we don't carry over TWF penalities for AoOs

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round.

Ergo, you do NOT suffer TWF penalties when making an attack of opportunity. It is not a "two-weapon" attack and in general it's irrelevant what attacks you've taken or not taken already in the round, nor is it relevant what penalties, feats, etc. you've applied to your attacks or been denied the ability to use, etc. Also, I see nothing that implies that you cannot decide to use your double-weapon "two-handed" instead, and thus gain the related bonuses on the AOO because again, it doesn't matter what your attacks this round have been. If you haven't yet attacked the AOO won't affect those attacks no matter how you use your weapon, bonuses, feats, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ergo, you do NOT suffer TWF penalties when making an attack of opportunity. It is not a "two-weapon" attack and in general it's irrelevant what attacks you've taken or not taken already in the round, nor is it relevant what penalties, feats, etc. you've applied to your attacks or been denied the ability to use, etc.

Sorry, this doesn't quite answer the question. You left out part of the quote:

An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round.

This is solely discussing the extra attacks due to BAB.

It has nothing to do with attack modifiers like Two Weapon Fighting.

You'll note that this paragraph you quoted from also does not discuss Flanking, attacking Invisible opponents, or a wide variety of OTHER modifiers to the to hit roll.

Two Weapon Fighting also uses your normal attack bonus. It just modifies it:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

Yes, you get your normal attack bonus. Modified by the situation. If you already did a two weapon attack in the round, that can still be considered the modifier because it is still part of the same "round".

Also, I see nothing that implies that you cannot decide to use your double-weapon "two-handed" instead, and thus gain the related bonuses on the AOO because again, it doesn't matter what your attacks this round have been. If you haven't yet attacked the AOO won't affect those attacks no matter how you use your weapon, bonuses, feats, etc.

To change from a single handed attack to a double handed attack or vice versa requires a free action (e.g. just like dropping an item, going from two handed to one handed is "dropping the sword" with one hand). You cannot do free actions outside your turn, so this is not allowed.

 

[Sejs]

I've always run it as the penalties for TWF apply until the begining of your turn next round.

 

[billd91]

I've always run it as the penalties for TWF apply until the begining of your turn next round.

Same here. It's convenient to have as many similar modifiers to combat (including power attack and expertise) expire at the same time.