D&D 5E How many (ancient) dragons would it take to destroy a (dwarven) city?


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KarinsDad

Adventurer
What is the DC for monster knowledge about dragons? And how many of those 50.000 dwarfs will make that DC, especially the higher level ones who rule the city/military?

This is my point. A lot of people go to a dice roll game mechanic to answer the question instead of going to common sense for a given campaign world.

If almost nobody in the entire campaign world knows that much about evil dragons (because evil dragons kill most humanoids that they meet), then there is no DC high enough to set for a DM. NPCs just do not know anything accurate about dragons (other than they are nasty, kill stuff, can fly, and have breath weapons, all things that can be noticed from a long presumably safe distance).

On the other hand, there would be a lot of inaccurate rumors about what dragons could do.

But you are thinking in game mechanics terms "What is the DC for monster knowledge about dragons?" instead of PC/NPC campaign knowledge terms "What rumors or information, accurate or inaccurate, exists in this campaign world about dragons?".

I think that part of this mindset came from the 4E designers who encouraged players having a ton of always accurate knowledge about the creatures that they fought. But the knowledge does not make sense. A bunch of wet behind the ears adventurers know all of this accurate information about monsters who typically kill whomever they encounter. But these same adventurers do not know any inaccurate information about these same creatures.

Did these adventurers go to monster school? How do they even recoginize the difference between a Goblin Thorn and a Goblin Sniper (both artillery with shortbows) such that they know that a Goblin Thorn can shift if it hits with a ranged attack and a hidden Goblin Sniper can remain hidden if it misses?

It's totally nonsensical.

In the real world, people have a general idea of how some things like cars and laptops and printing presses work because of education (and to a lesser degree the proliferation of the Internet), but ask someone details like have them repair a car or a laptop and most people are basically clueless. How much more clueless should a society be where very few people actually survive encounters with monsters, there is no level of education beyond basic skills and a single specific trade or profession, information tends to be local, and any information that is not local is spread from village to village by mostly merchants?

And that even assumes that the red dragon can shapechange as this is normally is quality of metallic dragons only and the preview did not show reds having that ability.

And again about the combat power of dragons, a single iron golem could kill the ancient dragon if the dwarfs manage to trap the dragon in a tunnel with it. So much for the power of ancient dragons.

Yeah, because every Dwarven city has a bunch of Iron Golems in their back pockets. Every trap that Dwarves set for Dragons are going to work and not be sussed out by an 18 Int creature. If a Dragon is trapped, it won't escape before an Iron Golem gets to the part of the city to attack it.

I would think that even in the unlikely scenario you describe, that the 18 Int 30 Str ancient dragon could grab the much smaller and weaker 3 Int 24 Str Iron Golem and use it as a weapon to break itself out of most types of traps. Sure, the golem could damage the dragon while the dragon is doing this, but the dragon could probably escape.

Alternatively, all the dragon technically has to do is have a good sized piece of ceiling drop on the golem, it then lies down on the rock. The golem is too weak to lift the rock and weight of the dragon off of itself and cannot use its breath weapon through cover.

Oh yeah, and Dwarves know all about Dragons with knowledge checks, but Dragons know nothing about Dwarves with knowledge checks.


I just find your scenario to be implausible. It makes more sense that an ancient dragon would kick the snot out of any dwarven city it came across and the dwarves wouldn't have the absolute best possible trap designed for a given type of ancient dragon.
 


Ramaster

Adventurer
The dragon starts attacking the Dwarves' allies. If the dwarves send small fighting parties as aid, the dragon kills them. If/when the dwarves send a larger contingent of soldiers, then the dragon uses its bitching flight speed to assault the city, kills the King/Queen/High Priest/Priestess and then holes up. She collapses all the entrances, slaves the civilians and then it's a waiting game until the dwarves send a "final assault" (here the dragon will have the advantage) or all die of old age while arguing with each other about the best course of action.

Taking the numbers given above about the amount of classed NPCs on the dwarven citadel, the dragon will have little problem taking them on without the help of a large number of archers.

Also, someone mentioned a "Pregnant" red dragon a few posts back. WTF?!
 


Derren

Hero
This is my point. A lot of people go to a dice roll game mechanic to answer the question instead of going to common sense for a given campaign world.

As long as the interaction between the players and the game world are adjudicated by dice rolls, then the rest of the world should too.
Besides, why does no one know about evil dragons? Were the PCs the first adventurers? Don't good dragons exist which are physically nearly the same as evil ones and usually do not kill people unless provoked? Has no one been able to even kill a young dragon and study its corpse?
Did these adventurers go to monster school? How do they even recoginize the difference between a Goblin Thorn and a Goblin Sniper (both artillery with shortbows) such that they know that a Goblin Thorn can shift if it hits with a ranged attack and a hidden Goblin Sniper can remain hidden if it misses?

It's totally nonsensical.

In the real world, people have a general idea of how some things like cars and laptops and printing presses work because of education (and to a lesser degree the proliferation of the Internet), but ask someone details like have them repair a car or a laptop and most people are basically clueless. How much more clueless should a society be where very few people actually survive encounters with monsters, there is no level of education beyond basic skills and a single specific trade or profession, information tends to be local, and any information that is not local is spread from village to village by mostly merchants?

Guess what, the ones whos job it is to defend a city will know about the threats the city faces, including dragons. And the ones (adventurers) who make a living out of killing monsters know a lot about monsters, the same way someone who earns his money with cars knows a lot about cars.
Yeah, because every Dwarven city has a bunch of Iron Golems in their back pockets. Every trap that Dwarves set for Dragons are going to work and not be sussed out by an 18 Int creature. If a Dragon is trapped, it won't escape before an Iron Golem gets to the part of the city to attack it.

Why should a huge dwarven city (50.000 is quite huge for that tech level) not have iron golems? And why would all of their traps fail?
I would think that even in the unlikely scenario you describe, that the 18 Int 30 Str ancient dragon could grab the much smaller and weaker 3 Int 24 Str Iron Golem and use it as a weapon to break itself out of most types of traps. Sure, the golem could damage the dragon while the dragon is doing this, but the dragon could probably escape.

Based on what rules? First, trapping the dragon with an iron golem is not that unlikely as you make it out to be. There are limited ways on how the dragon can get into the city (it would be too big to use most tunnels) and collapsing tunnels to cut off the enemy is not something it takes a genius to figure out.
And the next time the PCs meet a dragon, will it also be able to just pick one of them up and fly away like you propose the dragon does with the golem (assuming that for some strange reason the dragon has enough space to fly)? And will the PCs be able to do this, too against tiny enemies or when they can polymorph into a Roc or something similar?
Alternatively, all the dragon technically has to do is have a good sized piece of ceiling drop on the golem, it then lies down on the rock. The golem is too weak to lift the rock and weight of the dragon off of itself and cannot use its breath weapon through cover.

And the dwarfs only have to drop a good sized piece of ceiling on the dragon...
Oh yeah, and Dwarves know all about Dragons with knowledge checks, but Dragons know nothing about Dwarves with knowledge checks.

Who said something like this? The dragon would certainly know a lot about dwarf. It just wouldn't help much.
I just find your scenario to be implausible. It makes more sense that an ancient dragon would kick the snot out of any dwarven city it came across and the dwarves wouldn't have the absolute best possible trap designed for a given type of ancient dragon.

If you could only back that up with game stats. Because according to them the dragon is far from powerful and at a severe disadvantage in that situation. The dwarfs don't need anti dragon traps. Collapsing tunnels is rather universal for an underground city and the location pretty much negates any special ability the dragon has except the breath weapon which is similar what a lot of other creatures or wizards can do.
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
The dragon starts attacking the Dwarves' allies. If the dwarves send small fighting parties as aid, the dragon kills them.

Now, this is something I as a dragon would avoid. Dragons are badass, but in a typical D&D world they probably know full well that there are groups of extremely dangerous humanoids out there who make a living slaying dragons. Antagonize a big kingdom for long enough and they'll rustle up some heroes to kill you in your sleep. A sneak attack, though, can upset the balance of power before anyone has time to call up Elminster or whoever.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Don't good dragons exist which are physically nearly the same as evil ones and usually do not kill people unless provoked? Has no one been able to even kill a young dragon and study its corpse?

Yeah, I've heard that you can dissect a dead lawyer and figure out his abilities from the corpse. :lol:
 

Authweight

First Post
A lot of this depends heavily on the setting. Is it a world where dragons are basically big smart animals that everyone knows a lot about? Or are dragons a vague myth that people have heard about from distant lands? Even if there are good-aligned dragons around, that doesn't necessarily mean they welcome visitors or share secrets of their kind readily. They may also be exceedingly rare, or live in remote areas.

It also depends greatly on the reaction of the dwarves. If they scatter or fall into chaos, then the dragon will win easily. The dwarves may abandon the city well before all hope is actually lost. Consider also that defeating the dragon will entail taking potentially enormous casualties. Even if the dwarves could beat the dragon, they may not want to do what it takes. Historically, small, determined armies often conquered large populations. This wasn't because the small army could beat the entire population in a fight, it's because the population had no interest in fighting and found it better to submit than fight a costly, deadly, potentially disastrous war. A dragon could very easily be the d&d equivalent of a small but well-disciplined army. Sure, if the whole city picked up bows and started firing, the dragon would be toast, but that's not what would happen. Panic, chaos, and a lack of coordination would lead to the dwarves retreating and abandoning their home rather than confronting the dragon head-on.
 


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