D&D 3E/3.5 How many books in that library?

[ElectricDragon]

Catalogue
"Greetings. I am the Count. They call me the Count, because I LOVE to count... things.
One! One scroll. Two! Two scrolls! Mwahahahaha…”

Divination
Level: Brd 5, Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target (Area): 1 library (up to 1,000 square feet/level) (S)
Duration: 1 round/1,000 square feet
Saving Throw: None (object)
Spell Resistance: No (object)
This spell counts the number of books, scrolls, and tablets in the library and puts the total of each at the top of the first parchment page. Furthermore; at the end of the duration, this spell produces a list for the caster (in common) of the title of each and every book, scroll, or tablet in the library. The list includes the number of pages in each book, scroll, or tablet as well as the subject matter of each book, scroll, or tablet (if not readily apparent from the title). Any magical writings in the library are put on a separate list; that, in addition to the above mentioned information; also lists alignment of the book/scroll/tablet (if any), and what character class (or race) most benefits from the work (if any).
Material Components: A vial of giant squid ink (10 gp), the tip of a pin feather from a giant owl (200 gp), 100 parchment pages (40 gp) (these survive but are filled with writing by the spell).
Focus Component: A lit brass oil lamp (15 gp)

DM's note: Vacuous Grimoires are not detected as magical.

 

[Umbran]

In many worlds, "character class" is not an in-game thing. Try "profession" or the like.

 

[ElectricDragon]

If you feel that character class should be replaced with profession (a skill), you can easily do that for your campaign. Spell descriptions often mention character classes whether they are an in-game thing or not. Adding the word "profession" just confuses things. Character class is a game term.

 

[Celebrim]

If you feel that character class should be replaced with profession (a skill), you can easily do that for your campaign. Spell descriptions often mention character classes whether they are an in-game thing or not. Adding the word "profession" just confuses things. Character class is a game term.

I agree with Umbran in this at least partially. Character class doesn't exist as a thing in the world. It's not for example possible to cast "Detect Class" in order to know someone's class or classes. In some cases it's not even possible to infer in game what class they are from what they can do. For example, while the spell casting traditions are knowable from the different techniques and sources of power they use to gain access to magic, for non-spellcasting classes even the PC themselves does not know what class they are represented by on their character sheet because character sheets don't exist.

However, since your spell limits itself to just the spellcasting classes for my game at least, that would be sort of OK... maybe. I mean 'wizardly' magic is definitely distinguishable from clerical or shamanistic magic in my game, but depending on the nature of 'relevancy' it might not be possible to distinguish a book relevant to wizards from one relevant to sorcerer or one relevant to clerics from one relevant to shamans, and there would definitely be a category for 'general relevancy to spellcasters' since for example, there isn't a separate skill of 'Spellcraft' for each magical tradition.

Speaking as a GM, this spell is a nightmare to arbitrate. It's bad enough when players start pulling random titles off of book shelves and start reading them, with the expectation I can describe the contents of every book in the library (and presumably quote what is written on page 212). Now you are putting a spell in their hands that will force me to do that for all the books in the library.

A mandatory prerequisite to this spell existing is therefore a means to randomly generate the results that it produces. But even if you did, then it would be up to the DM to generate those results ahead of time otherwise you are dealing with a spell that when cast requires the DM to take potentially hours of game time to resolve. So the play burden of this spell for me would almost certainly lead to a ban on it before it ever saw play at the table.

This is also one of those spells that troubles me because it seems to be balanced on effect and not on methodology. That is to say, it seems to me that despite the relatively trivial nature of the effect, the degree of magical puissance required to produce this effect is tremendous. The ability to summarize 100's or 1000's of books per second implies either you are ignoring how the spell works, or else that books are semi-sentient spiritual beings so that you have some sort of interface with the book that makes them self-describing. And if the later is the case, then another prerequisite for this spell even existing for me would be a "Book Spirit" entry in a monster manual, and if the book isn't self-describing then it would seem than an arcane caster can perform a feat of godlike intelligence as a mere 5th level spell.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Think of "why" someone would want to cast this spell.
1. To know how many and what kind of magic books are in a suspect library.
2. To research a legendary or epic item, place, or thing.

In case #1. You as DM control how many (if any) are magical and what magics that would be. What do you want your characters to be able to find (again, if anything)? The spell does not locate these books for the characters, just lets them know that somewhere in this vast library are 3 magical books, most likely not in the same place (library adventure anyone?).

In case #2, only specific books will be important to the research, very few indeed (if any). You as DM should be aware of what info they are seeking and can easily determine if such info is within the library they are divining. A few suggestive (of the object of their search) names is simple for me, I guess I could have linked a random book name generator; but the characters should have no interest in esoteric books like "Barbarian Herbalism in Ancient Cimmeria" or "How I Mated with a Zombie" unless they are looking for how to make an herbal tea or zombie children (respectively).

Again, the spell does not locate the books for the characters, the list will speed up the search so that only the right named books are the object. Also, the spell does not tell you in what language the book was written. Finding the right book could require a translator or spell to be able to be deciphered.

Again, I say, "Class" is a game term; as is hit points, Armor Class, and Saving Throws (things mentioned often but not actual in-game things).

huh, book spirits, yeah, I got a few, written up and ready; but this is not their job, just to exist so a spell can be cast.

Divination

Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells.

Nowhere does it mention you must have a "spirit" to find such hidden or secret information. The information exists, MAGIC finds and displays it.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Furthermore, a quick perusal of the SRD reveals that several books work better for a class than any other. Golem Manuals (mostly sorcerer or wizard, one cleric) and Blessed Book (for wizards).

Three other books do not benefit a class more than any other (gaining a stat bonus is overall good for all classes, but: Int for wiz, Chr for sor or bard, Wis for cleric or druid or ranger or paladin). No other stat gives extra to those especially looking for that stat-Dex, Con, and Str all work the same for everybody, so no one benefits more. Listing the class(s) that are especially benefited by reading the work is simple

So in short, the list of classes that some books work better for includes: Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin, and Ranger. The spell-casting classes.

In 2e there were other books that basically boiled down to: +1 exp level for "whatever" class; such&such class instead has a detrimental effect.
In 2e this spell would be a life-saver and keep those fighters from falling prey to a mage's book and vice versa. But most books were removed (as unbalancing) for 3.5 and only a few survived. +to a stat (+1 to +5), blessed book, and golem manuals.

Now class does not exist in-game? So no one in your campaign ever said, "I'm the wizard!" or "I'm the Paladin!".
Instead of calling himself Ranger, his class on paper; Jerad insisted on claiming his profession was tracker.
No one ever calls for "CLERIC!!!" when down to their last few hp?
For a not in-game thing, classes get mentioned often.

 

[Lanefan]

I have to agree with [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] - as written this thing would be a nightmare for the DM.

That said, while there's a bunch of aspects* about this spell I don't like, I can certainly see loads of reasons why a wizard would design a spell whose effect was to simply count something - people in a room, books in a library, coins in a chest - and thus I must thank you for the inspiration for the new spell my game's about to pick up!

* - broadly boiling down to the spell simply gives away far too much information for far too little effort.

 

[Celebrim]

Think of "why" someone would want to cast this spell.

I don't think anyone has questioned why someone would cast the spell. We all understand the "why", except that I'm not sure why you decided to explain "why".

In case #2, only specific books will be important to the research, very few indeed (if any). You as DM should be aware of what info they are seeking and can easily determine if such info is within the library they are divining. A few suggestive (of the object of their search) names is simple for me, I guess I could have linked a random book name generator; but the characters should have no interest in esoteric books like "Barbarian Herbalism in Ancient Cimmeria" or "How I Mated with a Zombie" unless they are looking for how to make an herbal tea or zombie children (respectively).

If that is all you want the spell to achieve, then that is how it should work. It would then be like, "Identify Research Targets" and not "Catalog". Your spell claims to create specific information. Your players will reasonably want all the specific information that the spell claims to produce.

Again, I say, "Class" is a game term; as is hit points, Armor Class, and Saving Throws (things mentioned often but not actual in-game things).

But you are missing the point. Your spell produces an in game artifact that will list 'class' as an item on it. I think you'll find there are no spells in the game that produce in the imagined world items that list a target's hit points, armor class, or saving throws.

As for how classes exist in game, it's entirely possible in many campaigns to be a cleric (as a profession) but not have the cleric class. No one in my game calls themselves a paladin or a ranger. For one thing, neither class exists in my game - the equivalent classes in my game are Champion and Hunter. And if you were to meet a hunter in my game, there would be no way to know whether he was a hunter, fighter, explorer or expert or some combination there of. No one with the Brute class identifies themselves as a Brute. And most characters with the Explorer class would identify themselves as sailors or teamsters or guides or woodsmen or any other number of things. No one in the game identifies themselves as a Fighter. If someone claimed to be a warrior, he wouldn't be stating his class - he could well be a fighter. No on in the game with the Fanatic class identifies themselves as a Fanatic, and if some NPC were to call some other NPC a fanatic he'd be making a statement about personality. Fanatics identify themselves as warriors, templars, guards, laybrothers, or whatever. No one says I'm a Rogue and is speaking of some skill set. People don't know they are rogues in that sense. Sir Templeberry the droll nobleman does not think he belongs to the same class as a cutpurse, even though both of their character sheets might say 'rogue'.

And no spell in my game can "Detect Class". For example "Magic Mouth" is explicitly forbidden to trigger on something like, "When a Paladin walks by."

I'm aware that there are games where class is much more an in game feature and more resemble say the world of "Order of the Stick" where characters have a class and in game know what class they belong to. However, that's not my impression of what the rules endorse, and in any event it is like Umbran says quite common for campaigns to not consider class something that exists in the in game world but rather a metagame abstraction of the diverse backgrounds and skillsets in the game world.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Wizards do not exist in your game world?

 

[WaterRabbit]

The main issue here is that unless you have place where there are tons of books, this spell is of limited utility. No one will create a spell like this to count a dozen items or less -- which is what most troves of books are going to be. There are probably very few libraries in most worlds and they would be carefully guarded. With a 10 minute casting time it doesn't really work for smash and grabs either.

Also, why is the duration more than instantaneous?

I am in agreement that this needs a rework because as a DM I might be willing to create a list of books that is less than a dozen, but if you are measuring books in increments of 1,000 sq ft, forget about it. This might work for a computer game, but not a TTRPG. Also, I doubt many players care about the information that would be gathered by this spell. If a DM handed a player the information this spell produces for 500 books do you think they are going to actually go down the list and read it? I don't see the "fun" in a spell like this.