how many classes is too many?

[Janx]

[MENTION=8835]Janx[/MENTION]
school bully picking on you? smash his head in with an engine block - He comes back and beats you to death.
need some fast cash to pay a bill? cut open an ATM and take some money - Cops come and get you.
need to get the bad guy to tell you how to disable the bomb? break his arms and legs until he talks - He doesn't talk, bomb explodes.
Need to infiltrate secret high society club? Light it on fire and sort out the mess later - They want retribution and send assassins.
Need to convince the mayor to send in the national guard? blow up a few buildings - Life imprisonment.
Need to weed out the BBEG from the NPCs? beat them all up, the one who fights back well is higher level and evil - He was well prepared and kills you.

Who is your GM? Did these scenarios work in the past?

On my table you would probably fail taking these actions.

We call that DM thwarting of perfectly viable resolution mechanics. You'd be fired if it's too blatant.

If my PC is capable of picking up an engine block and dropping it on somebody normal's head, and that doesn't work, the GM cheated.

If my PC is capable of slicing open an ATM, the cops ain't much threat (just ask Wolverine).

The DM doesn't get to say No because he doesn't want it to work. They call that railroading.

 

[Fetfreak]

We call that DM thwarting of perfectly viable resolution mechanics. You'd be fired if it's too blatant.

If my PC is capable of picking up an engine block and dropping it on somebody normal's head, and that doesn't work, the GM cheated.

If my PC is capable of slicing open an ATM, the cops ain't much threat (just ask Wolverine).

The DM doesn't get to say No because he doesn't want it to work. They call that railroading.

I never said the GM is thwarting or not allowing the action. I tried to show you that every action has consequences.
A lot of cops is a threat for any character. It not cheating or railroading.

As for a Wolverine, I never played that game. I tend to run more "realistic" games.

 

[Janx]

I never said the GM is thwarting or not allowing the action. I tried to show you that every action has consequences.
A lot of cops is a threat for any character. It not cheating or railroading.

As for a Wolverine, I never played that game. I tend to run more "realistic" games.

For most of us, the conversation revolves around RPGs with powerful protagonists. Not you lipping off to a cop.

A guy who is more powerful than a cop shop full of cops does not approach problems as timidly as the rest of us.

 

[Celebrim]

[MENTION=8835]Janx[/MENTION]
school bully picking on you? smash his head in with an engine block - He comes back and beats you to death.

You don't get it. Combat twinks don't lose combats.

need some fast cash to pay a bill? cut open an ATM and take some money - Cops come and get you.

You kill them.

need to get the bad guy to tell you how to disable the bomb? break his arms and legs until he talks - He doesn't talk, bomb explodes.

You however live. Tragic what happened to the school kids, but you'll avenge them.

Need to infiltrate secret high society club? Light it on fire and sort out the mess later - They want retribution and send assassins.

]

Great more XP!

Need to convince the mayor to send in the national guard? blow up a few buildings - Life imprisonment.

You kill more cops.

Need to weed out the BBEG from the NPCs? beat them all up, the one who fights back well is higher level and evil - He was well prepared and kills you.

Yep, you don't get it. "My Hulking Hurler has an initiative bonus of +30 and does 100,000,000,000 damage per round." Escalation of power gaming just leads to greater insanity.

On my table you would probably fail taking these actions.

Mine too, but I also generally avoid point buy systems. You can get into this sort of thing even in a class based system if you aren't careful - KotDT practically lives on this sort of stuff - but it really takes point buy to really let power gamers thrive.

 

[Celebrim]

With a great chance of sounding like a pretentious douche, my friends and I are currently making such a game. Starter pack of our game will be available soon.

I'd love to see it.

Not really, traps...

That one is so well known its a tired trope. The best trap finder in the party isn't a rogue, it's the barbarian. This is lampooned in the beginning of 'The Gamers' where the rogue repeatedly fails to disarm a trap and dies, only to have the party fighter solve the puzzle by disarming the trap by walking into it and soaking the damage.

puzzles...

Bash through the walls, therefore bypassing the need to solve the puzzle.

...imprisonment

If the high level BBEG is a push over for you in combat, you certainly aren't going to be taken forcibly by the town watch. And if the town watch can threaten you, why do they need your help against the BBEG.

and so forth all threaten your character and yet you are not in a position to "bash the nail".

With a great chance of sounding like a pretentious douche, I'm beginning to wonder how broad your gaming experiences are.

You do make valid points; however, games that you mentioned are broken but the game as vampire the masquerade really encourages to engage in the story, not combat or I have been playing it wrong?

No you are doing it right, but the system itself sucks, gets in the way, and is highly abusable. Exalted is even worse.

 

[Fetfreak]

I'd love to see it.
That one is so well known its a tired trope. The best trap finder in the party isn't a rogue, it's the barbarian. This is lampooned in the beginning of 'The Gamers' where the rogue repeatedly fails to disarm a trap and dies, only to have the party fighter solve the puzzle by disarming the trap by walking into it and soaking the damage.

Bash through the walls, therefore bypassing the need to solve the puzzle.

If the high level BBEG is a push over for you in combat, you certainly aren't going to be taken forcibly by the town watch. And if the town watch can threaten you, why do they need your help against the BBEG.

With a great chance of sounding like a pretentious douche, I'm beginning to wonder how broad your gaming experiences are.

No you are doing it right, but the system itself sucks, gets in the way, and is highly abusable. Exalted is even worse.

Well our style of play is obviously very different. Most of my players aren't power gamers, I'll give you that, but two of them are. They are always trying to create even more powerful characters. Whenever they step out of the line I simply show them that every action has a consequence. If they continue with that silly routine, they usually loose their characters. There is always a bigger fish.
Maybe I have the luck of finding a group where the point of the game isn't to get a "Hulking Hurler".
My gaming experience is mostly tied to medieval low-fantasy.

 

[Dethklok]

I've played point buy, and in general it doesn't work.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I endorse point buy systems on the grounds that I do not like class systems. I play games that have no skills and no classes, let alone points that one may use to buy things. Even when I do play systems that have skills, there are no points. Although I can believe that a good point buy system exists or could be designed, I don't believe I've seen it yet.

Class based systems that don't provide you the freedom to create what you want are just as badly designed as point buy systems that don't provide balance. Good design of both can resolve problems and different sorts of games might suggest different approaches. There is no one right way here.

This notion that "there is no right way" obfuscates the fact that some systems and some mechanics are simply better than others.

Moreover, the freedom to create what you want is as overrated as balance. These ideals are mere illusions. The sages know that a good game is fun; neither game balance, nor the freedom for players to create whatever they might want, will necessarily provide that fun. In many cases, such features will merely detract from fun.

 

[Fetfreak]

Moreover, the freedom to create what you want is as overrated as balance. These ideals are mere illusions. The sages know that a good game is fun; neither game balance, nor the freedom for players to create whatever they might want, will necessarily provide that fun. In many cases, such features will merely detract from fun.

You do have a point here. Fun should be the top priority but then again everyone of us has fun in a different way. I was often annoyed with lack of balance and freedom, and that directly reduced the fun.

 

[Dethklok]

You do have a point here. Fun should be the top priority but then again everyone of us has fun in a different way. I was often annoyed with lack of balance and freedom, and that directly reduced the fun.

Fine.

But take balance and freedom as desirable ends in themselves, and try to maximize them in an rpg. The result is a game where there can be no character advancement - otherwise some characters will inevitably be more powerful than others, so no experience or leveling up is allowed - and where characters such as the pukemaster, accountant, and pile of shoelaces will be perfectly playable and just as effective as other characters. Once you take a step back from this, you will quickly realize that you actually like imbalances and restrictions--of certain kinds. Everyone does.

(And yes, of course I do realize that people like to say that all games are equal. I do not, however, understand why anyone would ever believe it.)

 

[Fetfreak]

Fine.

But take balance and freedom as desirable ends in themselves, and try to maximize them in an rpg. The result is a game where there can be no character advancement - otherwise some characters will inevitably be more powerful than others, so no experience or leveling up is allowed - and where characters such as the pukemaster, accountant, and pile of shoelaces will be perfectly playable and just as effective as other characters. Once you take a step back from this, you will quickly realize that you actually like imbalances and restrictions--of certain kinds. Everyone does.

(And yes, of course I do realize that people like to say that all games are equal. I do not, however, understand why anyone would ever believe it.)

You are right. Both balance and freedom should be pushed to certain extent otherwise you do get an un-enjoyable game.

I think didn't get the second part. I don't think games are equal. Every game has it's own players, it's about taste and what works for you.