How Might D&D Religions Differ From Real Life Religions?

Snoweel

First Post
Rulership is about politics, politics is about power, and the greatest power, in a fantasy setting, is god(s).

It seems to me that the only way a setting would have religion NOT be in the supreme rulership position is when the evil deities are of sufficiently lesser power than the good deities that the good guys can take a hands off approach

I came to this conclusion myself, but didn't like the constraints this would put on the kinds of settings and adventures that would be possible.

So I decided to make gods all but nonsentient - effectively insane or maybe just eternally sleeping (I'm sure I've picked this up from something I once read).

The end result of this is that priesthoods are only as powerful as their priests and followers.

Once you're there it's a simple matter to limit the powers of individual religions by making them compete with each other.

So if they're competing for both the goodwill of the ruling class and the hearts and minds of the common folk, they're all of a sudden no more powerful than any other organisation.

And we're alowed to continue with such fantasy tropes as secular martial aristocracies, magocracies, and any other power base that is not a theocracy.

Because a fantasy world full of theocracies might be fun for one campaign but the lack of diversity would wear pretty thin before long.
 

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Azzemmell

First Post
I came to this conclusion myself, but didn't like the constraints this would put on the kinds of settings and adventures that would be possible.

So I decided to make gods all but nonsentient - effectively insane or maybe just eternally sleeping (I'm sure I've picked this up from something I once read).

The end result of this is that priesthoods are only as powerful as their priests and followers.

Once you're there it's a simple matter to limit the powers of individual religions by making them compete with each other.

So if they're competing for both the goodwill of the ruling class and the hearts and minds of the common folk, they're all of a sudden no more powerful than any other organisation.

And we're alowed to continue with such fantasy tropes as secular martial aristocracies, magocracies, and any other power base that is not a theocracy.

Because a fantasy world full of theocracies might be fun for one campaign but the lack of diversity would wear pretty thin before long.


Excellent point, and I guess this is sorta how I've resolved this conflict in several of the most recent campaigns I've run. Lower the power of deities or make them less directly involved. I like the idea of all the gods sleeping. Seem to remember lots of insane gods from a David Farland book several years ago. Think it was called The Waterborn.

I like the idea of removing cleric's getting-their-power from the direct action of the deity. Changing it into a GOD - ESSENCE/IDEAL - CLERIC is cool.
 

Snoweel

First Post
An important point we haven't yet touched on is that of the afterlife.

I mean, any powerful extraplanar ('immortal' in 4e) being that can kick your ass can demand worship - and receive it when they or their agents are around to enforce this worship.

But what about when they're not around?

4e deities are explicitly stated as not being omniscient.

On top of that, but real-world religions (which is where the idea of 'gods' come from) all offer some kind of eternal afterlife. Or maybe not all of them do but the big (ie. most successful) ones all do to some degree.

This is perhaps their biggest appeal, as well as the main reason they have been embraced by the ruling class - their promise of a blissful afterlife is an important element in their function of social control.

Sure your life might be comparatively crap now but if you stay faithful and behave yourself an eternity in paradise awaits.

Do D&D deities need to offer a similar 'afterlife' package to make them gods?

Certainly the idea of power in this life is an incentive but if that power only goes to the gods' chosen (ie. clerics and other 'divine casters') then what's in it for the little people?

Sure the clerics of said deity could feel compelled to offer free (or cut-price at least) magical aid to the faithful but if that was the long and short of what a god offers its followers then the 'worship' (or at least the loyalty) would end up focused on the clergy, rather than the god.

Your thoughts (yes you).
 

Azzemmell

First Post
An important point we haven't yet touched on is that of the afterlife.

I mean, any powerful extraplanar ('immortal' in 4e) being that can kick your ass can demand worship - and receive it when they or their agents are around to enforce this worship.

But what about when they're not around?

4e deities are explicitly stated as not being omniscient.

On top of that, but real-world religions (which is where the idea of 'gods' come from) all offer some kind of eternal afterlife. Or maybe not all of them do but the big (ie. most successful) ones all do to some degree.

This is perhaps their biggest appeal, as well as the main reason they have been embraced by the ruling class - their promise of a blissful afterlife is an important element in their function of social control.

Sure your life might be comparatively crap now but if you stay faithful and behave yourself an eternity in paradise awaits.

Do D&D deities need to offer a similar 'afterlife' package to make them gods?

Certainly the idea of power in this life is an incentive but if that power only goes to the gods' chosen (ie. clerics and other 'divine casters') then what's in it for the little people?

Sure the clerics of said deity could feel compelled to offer free (or cut-price at least) magical aid to the faithful but if that was the long and short of what a god offers its followers then the 'worship' (or at least the loyalty) would end up focused on the clergy, rather than the god.

Your thoughts (yes you).

Ah yes, the afterlife. :) This seems like a whole 'nuther aspect that that will determine the role of religion/gods in a setting. I mean that primarily in this regard: do the gods control what the afterlife will be?

In our real world each religion is in control of what it's afterlife is. But imagine an existence where the gods DON'T control what it will be. If they don't, it would seem to hint at an organizing force or power above themselves, something to which even THEY must give way to. But this doesn't have to be a SUPREME GOD OF GODS [trumpets blaring], it could be a force or law of nature like gravity or such (or a supreme god, but a deist type who set the clock ticking and sort of wandered off).

In such a case a great deal of control is removed from the gods (depending on what the afterlife is - everyone going to hell no matter what is kinda a break-even deal, but in a sucky way), though only if the gods admit the truth to their followers.

Which brings me to the question of: can mortals learn the truth of the afterlife before they die? If afterlife is beyond the control of the gods, and everyone can find proof of this, then doesn't that lower religions in the game world to, as you said, just another social or political organization (albeit very powerful ones)? Hmmm...

On another note, the control a religion may have over a society or culture doesn't HAVE to be based on whether they can give the regular folks a pass to paradise. It could be voluntary control given by the masses based on their perception that the god and church really do have the best intentions (and the power to carry such things out) for the masses. Imagine the public works projects a vast church with thousands of magic using clerics could undertake. I daresay that in a world such as that, those folks quality of life would easily rival or surpass anything that has been seen in the real world. Clean water, very little disease, very few life threatening injuries, abundant and clean food, ... and the use of spells like Zone of Truth in the hands of a clerical judge would ... well, you get the idea.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Ah yes, the afterlife. :) This seems like a whole 'nuther aspect that that will determine the role of religion/gods in a setting. I mean that primarily in this regard: do the gods control what the afterlife will be?
I've always had it that each deity ends up with the spirits of some or all of its worshippers; each divine plane is its own land of the dead, in a way.
Which brings me to the question of: can mortals learn the truth of the afterlife before they die?
In the game world, yes. Spells like Commune can give verbal answers, and spells like Planeshift can give you firsthand experience. Dying and coming back can give firsthand experience also, if your DM allows you to remember what you did while dead.

Lanefan
 

Quickleaf

Legend
reviving an old thread here...

This actually gives me an idea. Consider in the real world, if you pray before you eat (Thor, thanks for the gruel, please make sure I don't bite another rock in it), or if you pray you're next shot hits, there's not real way to know if it did any good. If you miss or chip a tooth, I suppose you can assume it didn't, or you might be out of favor with thor.

Now in D&D, imagine if there were a bunch of "cantrip" like prayers people could do that gave a real GAME effect. Bless my next attack, get a +1 to-hit on next attack within 1 round. Bless my food, get some sort of bonus towards health or purification against disease.
This reminds me of RuneQuest a bit. I love the idea and am trying to incorporate this into my campaign setting, but realized that anything I came up with was on par with Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune. Since clerics are supposed to be the "big guns", this is problematic.

I'm still searching for a solution, but the concept is great and really reinforces a world where religion influences many aspects of life.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think the single biggest difference would be the degree to which religion would control life.

The surviving popular religious traditions assume a diety that is not overtly involved in the day to day affairs of creation, and is at most looking in and subtly nudging things behind the scenes. Religious traditions with this belief tend to emphasis perfection of secular living over religious ritual. That is, for the most part, religious ritual is confined to certain holy days and often only portions of them.

But historically, this isn't the only sort of religious practice that has flourished. The alternate view, that supernatural things are occuring all the time, also has held sway. As science succeeds in giving natural explanations to most things that we observe, religions that are incompatible with the idea of a subtle and mysterious supernatural world tend to fall by the way side. As a practical matter, I think they also fall by the wayside by demanding too much sacrifice on the part of their practicioner compared to religious practices that demand less departure from mundane matters to tend to the sacred. The classic example would I think be Rome's triumph over the Etruscans.

But with the possible example of folk Hinduism, you'd be hard pressed to find a widely practiced Etruscan style religion in the modern world.

However, in a fantasy world, supernatural things actually would be occuring all the time, the gods are (at the very least through clerics) actively manifesting there power in far from subtle ways all the time, the gods have fairly sizable control over their spheres and apparantly the will to use it, and almost certainly the successful cultural practice would be paying attention to the gods all the time in hourly rituals of propituation, celebration, and worship.

A person crossing from the average D&D world to medieval Europe would I think be struck by how limited of a role religion played in daily life, the economy, culture, and the government. The visitor from the D&D world would be completely familiar with the monastic rituals of unceasing prayer, but would be struck how confined these rituals were to a particular class of people and by the fact that only a single diety would need to be propitiated for the whole of society. The visitor from the D&D world would be completely at home with the notion of every trade having a patron saint, but would be shocked at how little of a role worship of that saint played in the every day practice of the craft. The visitor would be used to every aspect of the craft having a religious role and meaning, and that everything would have the ritual formalism of a Japanese tea ceremony (Shintoism incidently, being a relatively ritualized religion which perhaps in antiquity had something of what I'm describing) where as everything he'd witness would seem so pragmatic, unadorned, and casual by comparison. The visitor from the D&D world would be perfectly at home with clergy being great lords, but perhaps uncomfortable with the idea that head of the mason guild wasn't the high priest of the God of Masons, the Mayor the high priest of the God of Cities or Trade or something similar, and average streetsweepers not noviates at the temple of something.

I think pretty much everyone would be engaged in mutliple religious observances round the clock. The Moslems daily reutine of prayers would pale in comparison to such proper homage to a half dozen deities reutinely, and any number of other dieties as their spheres of influence crossed your path.

I think our visitor might ultimately be struck by how free we are to excercise our lives without the continual meddlesome intervention of some god or the other, and just how little reutine smiting for failing to offer this sacrifice or the other seemed to occur. Battles would be reutinely decided by tactics on the field, not by which side had accidently trod across this sacred field or the other without offering a proper tribute. Peoples lives would be largely theres to live as they wanted without fear that they'd get caught up in a dispute between the Goddess of Love and the Goddess of Marriage that would consume their lives and make a mockery of their choices.
 

Voadam

Legend
On top of that, but real-world religions (which is where the idea of 'gods' come from) all offer some kind of eternal afterlife. Or maybe not all of them do but the big (ie. most successful) ones all do to some degree.

This is perhaps their biggest appeal, as well as the main reason they have been embraced by the ruling class - their promise of a blissful afterlife is an important element in their function of social control.

Sure your life might be comparatively crap now but if you stay faithful and behave yourself an eternity in paradise awaits.

A lot of afterlives suck.

Sheol.

Hades. (Elysian fields for heroes only, and they are not pictures of piety)

Hel. (Valhala for warriors who die bravely in battle only)

The Mesopotamian one.

Most dead are pale shades, the afterlife is not a reward for faithfulness.
 

Voadam

Legend
The surviving popular religious traditions assume a diety that is not overtly involved in the day to day affairs of creation, and is at most looking in and subtly nudging things behind the scenes.

I don't think that is an accurate description. I think it is as easy for surviving popular religious traditions to assume a deity behind every illness, natural disaster, turn of fortune, victory, or perceived blessing as it is for them to assume a removed one. An assumption of deity being directly, personally, and intimately connected to everything is not contrary to popular surviving religious traditions. I believe there is a wide range of assumptions on deity involvement within surviving traditions.
 

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