D&D 5E How might elven societies be different from the norm?

[Celebrim]

I know. But this isn't a LotR thread.

You were the one who brought up Rivendell. I responded, in essence, that I didn't know what you meant by a "Rivendell style city" as even in most Tolkien inspired art - which often has only a loose resemblance to the text - Rivendell is not depicted as a city. Nor for that matter is there a lot of uniformity on what Rivendell looks like, except for, as I mentioned, the waterfalls flowing through the house's foundation seems to have become a trope. So I'm not even necessarily clear on what a city of buildings built in the Rivendell style would look like, other than again, waterfalls. And in any event, I suspect Rivendell style however much sense it makes for Tolkien elves in that time and place, doesn't make a lot of sense for D&D elves. The manor house is a product of a very lawful, socially stratified culture, living together communally, in very tight quarters. This doesn't make a lot of sense as the normal mode of civics for a chaotic freedom loving highly individualized culture built around self-expression, even if they are 'high elves'.

In general, I expect whatever a city looks like, it will be an entity that exists for largely economic reasons built somewhere that makes economic sense. Thus, it may be the case that the elves lavish decoration and adornment on whatever they build, but I can't foresee them building anything they don't actually need. Your typical painted elven city seems to have a lot of buildings with no function, and no examples of buildings fulfilling necessary functions like smithies, mills, barns, apiaries, breweries, etc. Even though I have a low agricultural model in mind, if they are going to have a city actually disrupting the landscape, I'd expect to see vineyards, greenhouses, mills, chimney's, barns, etc.

Except: magic.

If you are going to invoke magic in the construction of a city, I think you are well served to go ahead and be more overt about it. Magic is a very expensive solution to mundane problems. To the extent that the elves are going to invoke magic to solve real problems, I suspect it has more to do with gathering firewood than preventing ordinary erosion. It's not like a chaotic species is going to be rigidly opposed to change and evolution.

Again, a city is something you build because you need it. Typically what passes for an elven city in paintings has so much unneeded vertical space you'd have to build an elevator to use it, raising the question of why you'd build straight up despite low population density. It has waterfalls pouring off the very tops of mountains or out of treetops in defiance of logic, and running through the foundations of the building were they'd erode and eventually destroy the structure. It has buildings with no clear function and often no clear means of egress or even no obvious usable space (in the case of buildings that aren't decorated with spires, but seem to be made entirely out of spires).

It might look good as a painting (though that's debatable) but I think it has no place in an RPG. 'Elfish architecture' is right up there with fluted pointy plate mail and chain mail bikini's in terms of my appreciation for it.

Because fantasy worlds often bear very large resemblance to the real world, the sort of adaptations that one is going to expect to see living in a fantasy world are going to be quite similar to what you'd see in the real world. So while you might rely on diverse ideas from medieval Wales, Japan, Ireland, northern India, Shaker Villages, and the American Craftsman movement to get ideas for how elves might build things, I wouldn't expect that in their basics the elves will be doing anything too radically different than what humans somewhere have done. Humans have built cave cities. They've built things out of the living branches of trees. The difference with elves would probably be only a matter of degree, not kind.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Ok, well, thank you for that I guess. Your opinions are duly noted.

Anyone else want to discuss the possible ideas I brought up in my query?

I like to think of a high elven city as something decadently beautiful, yet timelessly regal. Perhaps a shining city of alabaster and gold, spires jutting up out of an ancient forest like a beacon of a time long lost but held onto. Not quite blended or intertwined with the forest around it, but not completely separated from it either.

 

[Bupp]

In my world of Eska, the gray elves live in domed cities in the mountains.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Assuming a 'Europe-like' climate:

Stands of fruit and nut trees [mixed together in a nature-mimicking way rather than mono-species orchards], berry shrubs, grapevines (if the area is warm enough). Pigs and small livestock like rabbits (and maybe edible insects) -- no big cleared fields for cattle or sheep. They would probably eat fish, and manage/farm the water bodies in their forest to some degree.

Elven diet is probably a lot lower in carbohydrates than human diet.

--

I'd imagine sewage is used to grow mushrooms (or something weirder - maybe there are dung beetles that produce alchemically/magically useful components in elven forests).

 

[GreenTengu]

You know... If I were to write it, I would twist the knife a little and reveal that elves aren't nearly as "good" as they claim to be.

Think about it... ever known an elf to do an honest days work? I mean... really?

High Elves in particular seem to have all the stone, natural gas and metal they could possibly need... but where exactly does it come from? Can you really imagine elves working down in the mines? Stripped down, covered with soot and swinging those pick axes with all the strength their frail bodies have?

No... of course not.

And can you really imagine an elf plowing the fields? You can claim gathering and hunting all you like, but frankly-- you can't feed a real population that way. Unless you have a method of producing a large amount of food in a small space rather efficiently, you aren't going to feed your sizeable population of human-like beings that live for a thousand years and never sleep.

Is this happening through trading? Unlikely. We are told elves generally keep to themselves and, even if they were trading, there would have to be something they produce that would be worthwhile that could be traded-- and, again, what could they imaginably be trading if none of them is capable of a real honest days work and instead universally all elves get to spend all day every day partying or studying and generally being chaotic, valuing freedom over order?

I'd bet you anything that there are very good reasons elves never let outsiders visit their cities-- because any real outsider's examination of them would reveal their arrogant high and mighty moral principles to be simply a farce.

Maybe their work is done through magic. Summon beings from other planes and compel them doing the work, reasoning it isn't slavery because these beings don't have discernable thoughts or intelligence... or a least they can't communicate such. Or maybe that is too difficult, maybe they regularly capture outsiders and put them under charm spells in order to get them to do all the heavy labor and serve the elves every whim. It is fine as long as they, the master race, are the ones doing it and they are using magic to compel service rather than chains and the whip. And that's probably the real reason charm spells don't work very well on them, they have a built-up resistance.

Or maybe they go out and rob other peoples of everything. Maybe they like to target the particularly physically unappealing peoples. Orcs, Goblins, Giants, etc. Then when those people go stomping around in retaliation, the elves tell the humans and dwarfs 'hey! there are monsters over there!! go get 'em!!' and the humans and dwarves are all too happy to rid the world of these monsters-- after all, are you going to believe the flawlessly beautiful, virtuous, perfect, never wrong elf or a 'monster'? And thus rid elves of receiving consequences for plundering others...

And this game works only so long as the elves make sure that outsiders, outside of the most trusted, conditioned outsiders sworn to absolute secrecy, are allowed to view their civilization. Because if anyone ever realized just how elves manage to get away with living carefree, wistful lives and making sure they remain unblemished with perfect skin and perfect manicures and delicate and graceful yet receive all the benefits that humans, dwarfs, halflings and everyone else has to work from dawn to dusk at backbreaking labor for.... well, the gig would be up and they might soon face an uprising forcing them to either have to use their powerful magics to eliminate all threats to them or relocate and hope rumors don't catch up to them.


See, that would be the ideal way to do an elven city. Secret, hidden and guarded because if it was ever found out, one would realize that the elves entire 'like humans, just flawless and perfect in every way' is all built on lies and deceptions and is really the result of being the ruling class of a dystopian slave state, albeit a totally clean, tidy and beautiful one on the surface.... so long as you can ignore the silent suffering of those whose backs it is built on who have been effectively lobotomized and their faces forced into a 'content' smile.

 

[Morinth]

Well, if you want your campaign world to be super bleak, dark, edgy, etc., I guess you could have evil elves. I mean, we already have drow, but there's no reason the run-of-the-mill elves can't be evil too. Really, all of the demihuman societies could follow this same model, dwarves could be harnessing balors 'n such, halflings could be exploiting their environment in some chilling way, maybe they eat humans? They are hungry little beggars. And that would make the presumably heroic PCs more shiny by comparison.

 

[GreenTengu]

Well, if you want your campaign world to be super bleak, dark, edgy, etc., I guess you could have evil elves. I mean, we already have drow, but there's no reason the run-of-the-mill elves can't be evil too. Really, all of the demihuman societies could follow this same model, dwarves could be harnessing balors 'n such, halflings could be exploiting their environment in some chilling way, maybe they eat humans? They are hungry little beggars. And that would make the presumably heroic PCs more shiny by comparison.

Well, Dwarves already have their evil aspects, it just tends to be romanticized or underplayed.

Dwarves are greedy. Endlessly greedy. They cannot possibly possess enough gold and gems. They dig and dig and dig into the earth all in order to enrich themselves and, as a result, are the ones primarily responsible for stirring the eldritch horrors that lie inside.
Dwarves also love violence and war. They engage in violence, even with each other, as a pass time. Their love for drinking is because it dulls their senses and allows them all the more excuses to engage in brawls with one another.
They live in a highly political, very strict clan-based society where it is likely one doesn't need to do much to get executed and if you are in a clan that is in powerplay, you can expect your political rivals to dishonor you and destroy and either kill or banish you. It is probably where most dwarven adventurers come from-- for nothing about the dwarf as presented would lead one to believe they would ever leave their homeland and venture to the surface willingly. Bet you most of the dwarfs on the surface are "criminals" who were banished, even if their crimes were either overblown or entirely fabricated.
And, finally, Dwarfs hold grudged forever and swear bloody vengeance over the most innocuous and mundane of things. If you great grandfather wronged the father of a Dwarf in some way that hardly seems important, it would not be surprising if he attempts to kill you over it... again and again until either he succeeds or dies.


Halflings... well, Halflings are commoners. They live in these small hamlets that are almost certainly taxed by human authorities... probably to a greater extreme than humans would be. Halflings to get out of that situation likely harbor a slight grudge and are going to probably tend towards being outlaws or, at least, swindlers. Its why they are so prevalent in thieves guilds and the like. To survive as anything but a serf, Halflings probably need to be cut-throat and ready to betray anyone at a moment's notice.... after all, they know they likely aren't valued and others are probably going to turn their backs on them at any given moment ("you don't need to outrun the dragon, just the halfling").


It isn't about just being bleak or dark though. It is actually trying to come up with feasible explanations as to why things in the world are the way they are and treating the various peoples that inhabit the world as though they were well... peoples... rather than saying "these ones are all good and perfect and not a one of them would ever do anything wrong and those ones are evil and every single one of them looks to do evil with every action they take."

Those allied with humans and opposed to humans need not change, but just put a bit more thought into the idea of "well, if this is how things appear on the surface, but this cannot possibly work under remotely realistic circumstances... what could possibly ACTUALLY be going on to explain how one could end up with things looking like this?"

The elven society I described above would still consider itself morally superior and condemn everyone for their faults and consider themselves perfect... but it adds an excuse for their secrecy as well as they understand that lesser races could not possibly understand how their way of life is just. They wouldn't be evil in all ways, they just have blindspots in regards to certain actions their society takes in order to allow them to live the lives they live. They would still behave just as they always have in all other circumstances.

Its just how all societies throughout all of history have always worked. No matter the society, the higher it reached the more you can be certain there was something uncomfortable and unspeakable happening to allow them to exist. And every time the people of the society found it easy to ignore it... or just rationalize it. It happens even today. Bet you don't want to really know how the computer you are typing on, the energy it is running on and what you ate today really came from. Or, if you know, you just don't think about it.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

High Elves in particular seem to have all the stone, natural gas and metal they could possibly need... but where exactly does it come from?

I'd imagine they trade for it, mostly. (And... natural gas? That seems a bit beyond the general tech level of most D&D worlds). There are probably elven smiths, but I doubt they mine iron - they'd buy it from humans or dwarves.

What do they sell in return? Potions and minor magic items, probably - I'd imagine that elves have a far higher % of spellcasters among their population.

And they probably don't use much metal, mostly for special items of very high craftsmanship like enchanted swords.

And can you really imagine an elf plowing the fields? You can claim gathering and hunting all you like, but frankly-- you can't feed a real population that way.

I'd imagine they would use something in between traditional agriculture and pure hunting and gathering - they have orchards and such, the streams and ponds in their lands are massively productive of fish...

They are not 'purely natural' ecosystems, but it's a small amount of effort put in over a very long time, rather than plow/plant/harvest/replant field agriculture.

Also, their populations will probably be small - long generation time means low population growth. They are probably barely able (or not able) to maintain their numbers in the face of the various cataclysms and incursions of evil most D&D worlds face.

--

This leads to the classic traits of elves: localized and rather isolated in weird magical forests.

Their magic-richness and long lifespans [thus lots of high-level elves who remember previous evil incursions etc.] means other peoples don't try to expand into elven lands.

But their low (or nonexistent) population growth means they don't expand either.

So elven lands have all been inhabited by elves for ages, and become weird, magic-infused, altered environments.

 

[Morinth]

I'd imagine they trade for it, mostly. (And... natural gas? That seems a bit beyond the general tech level of most D&D worlds). There are probably elven smiths, but I doubt they mine iron - they'd buy it from humans or dwarves.

What do they sell in return? Potions and minor magic items, probably - I'd imagine that elves have a far higher % of spellcasters among their population.

And they probably don't use much metal, mostly for special items of very high craftsmanship like enchanted swords.



I'd imagine they would use something in between traditional agriculture and pure hunting and gathering - they have orchards and such, the streams and ponds in their lands are massively productive of fish...

They are not 'purely natural' ecosystems, but it's a small amount of effort put in over a very long time, rather than plow/plant/harvest/replant field agriculture.

Also, their populations will probably be small - long generation time means low population growth. They are probably barely able (or not able) to maintain their numbers in the face of the various cataclysms and incursions of evil most D&D worlds face.

--

This leads to the classic traits of elves: localized and rather isolated in weird magical forests.

Their magic-richness and long lifespans [thus lots of high-level elves who remember previous evil incursions etc.] means other peoples don't try to expand into elven lands.

But their low (or nonexistent) population growth means they don't expand either.

So elven lands have all been inhabited by elves for ages, and become weird, magic-infused, altered environments.

This is kind of how I envision non-evil elven societies too. They just aren't like humans, not nearly as acquisitive as dwarves and really just want to be left alone for the most part. They have all the time in the world to achieve their goals, and their basic needs are few and easily met. And I would imagine every elf contributes in some way. An elven smith isn't out hunting and gathering, but there are plenty of elves who are, and the smith eats well enough. And elves are naturally abstemious to a degree, they don't indulge in food and drink the way dwarves, halflings and humans do, so they don't need as much of it. I imagine it's a point of pride when an elven hunter provides just enough food, no more and no less than is needed at that moment. And they have stores of dried and magically preserved food for those times when game is scarce. And they always take the long view, and keep careful track of game population in their territories, and work to eradicate other groups who incur on their hunting grounds and upset the balance.

 

[MostlyDm]

Well, if you want your campaign world to be super bleak, dark, edgy, etc., I guess you could have evil elves. I mean, we already have drow, but there's no reason the run-of-the-mill elves can't be evil too. Really, all of the demihuman societies could follow this same model, dwarves could be harnessing balors 'n such, halflings could be exploiting their environment in some chilling way, maybe they eat humans? They are hungry little beggars. And that would make the presumably heroic PCs more shiny by comparison.

I didn't see his suggestion as bleak/dark/edgy.

Just a logical conclusion drawn from a race as implausible and perfect as the elves.

You can't have a race that is simultaneously: 1) in "harmony" with nature 2) perfectly beautiful and clean and above mortal concerns 3) possesses a vast amount of mineral wealth, finely worked goods, etc. 4) is a paragon of holier-than-thou moral virtue.

These are not really compatible. For one thing, nature is incredibly hostile to any sort of civilized life. To achieve great works, you need to subjugate nature. You also need to be willing to get your hands dirty by mining, smelting, farming, etc. So you can have #3 and #4 at the expense of cleaving closely to #1 and #2, for example.

Basically... The only way to have all of those things is for one or more of them to be a facade. His suggestion that #4 was the facade, which is in my opinion kinda clever and novel.