How much can you drop from d20,and still be d20?

[Turanil]

I am not talking about what is legal to call a d20 game or not. I am not a student of the d20/ogl licenses enough to go into that type of conversation. What I am interested in as gamers, and d20 fans, where do you drawl the line as to what is d20 and what isn’t?

I draw the line here: It must be based on character classes with the SRD list of skills, feats (even if new feats are added), and way to give hit-points, bab, etc.; a character made using those rules could be used almost seamlessly into other d20 game (at least those closely based upon the d20 SRD). As such, I can use characters created with Grim Tales, Slaine d20, or CoC d20, in a D&D setting and it will work (even if they would be unbalanced compared to D&D characters of the same level). As such, I think Blue rose may not apply, as its characters use a different system of hit-damage (among other differences).

 

[Afrodyte]

It still seems pretty solidly D20 to me. The core mechanic is the same, and the most integral parts of the system (skills, feats, classes, levels) remain pretty much intact. In fact, a lot of people have been experimenting with several of the ideas Blue Rose uses. It's encouraging, to say the least, for some of the ideas I've come up with altering the D20 system.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

-no ability scores, just ability modifiers

No big deal. Six of one, half a dozen of another.

-no character classes.

A rose by another name.

-no class abilities, just feats

No big deal. They always seemed fairly interchangable to me anyway.

-no hit points

Probably the the biggest departure from "core" D20.

-totally different magic system

No big deal. In fact, it's what they should have done with D20 Modern. The D&D magic system is fairly idiosyncratic.

-no experience points

No big deal, I've never used the standard XP system anyway.

-no miniature based combat

Exellent! AoO is the THAC0 of 3rd edition.

-different alignment system

No bid deal. Most D20 products not meant to supplement D&D have an alternative to the D&D alignment system, or ignore it altogether.


Out of that list I only see one major departure, and that comes from another fairly popular D20 game. So I say, It's still within the pale of orthodoxy.

 

[Nisarg]

You can change absolutely everything about D20 and it will still be D20.

D20 is not a game system, its an ideology.

That's why it is the future of gaming, and that's why we are in a new golden age.

Nisarg

 

[Starman]

MnM had rules for adding hit points if you wanted them. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to do with Blue Rose.

I am glad to see more products that start to flex the d20 system out. As far as I'm concerned it is a d20 product if the core resolution mechanic is d20+modifiers against a target number. Everything else can be muddled with.

Starman

 

[Dismas]

... As far as I'm concerned it is a d20 product if the core resolution mechanic is d20+modifiers against a target number. Everything else can be muddled with.

Wizards has even muddled with that. Unearthed Arcana has a 'bell curve' resolution option which uses 3d6 rather than a d20, so it appears that nothing is sacred

I had toyed with the idea of a stripped down intro game using the Warrior, Expert and Spellcaster classes, damage save and bell curve resolution (so it can be played without the need for 'special' dice) and I could put out with a d20 system logo on it, even though it doesn't use any :\

 

[Ranger REG]

Wizards has even muddled with that. [Unearthed] Arcana has a 'bell curve' resolution option which uses 3d6 rather than a d20, so it appears that nothing is sacred

I agree. But if I only deviated by that much, keep most of the other known game elements, and still refer to the PHB (as well as abide all terms of the d20STL and Trademark Usage Guide), I can still label it as a d20 System product.

However, I don't think I want to mislead my potential customers so perhaps, I should make such a Bell Curve System product (with a "bell" logo) a stand-alone (i.e., core game book).

 

[Psion]

Some of the ideas sound good to me, some I don't like. Though that’s not what I want to talk about. With this many different changes to the basic d20 system, is it still fare to call it d20? If so, what defines d20 as d20 for you? Where would you drawl the line and say that a system is no longer d20?

I am not talking about what is legal to call a d20 game or not. I am not a student of the d20/ogl licenses enough to go into that type of conversation. What I am interested in as gamers, and d20 fans, where do you drawl the line as to what is d20 and what isn’t?

If you aren't speaking in a legal sense, the question becomes much more vague. There are a number of benchmarks you might pick to make that call.

- Usability as-is in a DnD game with few changes (Scarred Lands)
- Some compatability with D&D; major aspects changed (Midnight)
- Recognizable aspects (such as feats), but major aspects changed (Blue Rose, M&M)

 

[Mythtify]

It seems to me, that over the past couple of years, people have really opened there mind to what they accept as being "d20". Thats pretty cool.

As for me:
Ability scores- needed. Even though a 12 and a 13 score shares the same bonus, a 13 is still a better score than a 12. It may not be important all the time, but it is still important

Character Classess- I prefer what they do in d20 modern. Basic Classes based around ability scores used to build your charactrer concept

Class Abilities- again, I like d20moderns mix of bonus feats and talents

Hit Points- have to have them to be d20, in my opinion. Very sacred cow.

different magic- not a major deal, though I prefer the magic to be at least based around what is in the srd. Magic is a big deal, if you have it. It takes time to learn and understand. If you change the magic system totaly, it is like learning a completely different game. Go ahead and change it, but make it close enough that I can pick it up quick, and feels familiar. Arcana Unearthed does a fantastic job of this.

xp- have to have it. I don't like the idea of GM whim dictating when characters advance. If your not going to give out xp based on encounters, then do a fixed amount of xp per scale of the adventure.

miniatures- prefer not to use them, but they come in handy. I take the little as possible approach.

alignment- I am all for dropping alignment completly.

 

[rangerjohn]

Wizards has even muddled with that. Urban Arcana has a 'bell curve' resolution option which uses 3d6 rather than a d20, so it appears that nothing is sacred

I had toyed with the idea of a stripped down intro game using the Warrior, Expert and Spellcaster classes, damage save and bell curve resolution (so it can be played without the need for 'special' dice) and I could put out with a d20 system logo on it, even though it doesn't use any :\

I believe you mean Unearthed Arcana. Urban Arcana is a suplement for d20 Modern.