How much damage are effects worth?

[Stalker0]

There are several threads trying to rate various powers. Its a great idea, and this thread is an assist to that.

Most powers tend to have large damage, or less damage with some good effect.

As a quick example, the fighter's Brute Strike does 3[w] damage vs Comeback Strike's 2[w] + heal with a surge. Now in optimal conditions Brute Strike does an average 7 damage more than CS, and of course 12 more on a crit.

So that begs the question, how much damage is the ability to spend a healing surge really worth? Is 7 the right number, would you need something beefier like 10 before you consider it worthwhile, etc.

And this of course applies to all status effects. How much damage is slow worth vs immobilized, etc etc.

 

[frankthedm]

Really hard to gauge. A slow / immobilize effect is usfull when it keeps a melee foe from getting to it's target. Far less so on some already engaged. A melee ability to slow / immobilize someone is worth little unless it on a mobile striker's attack.

Slowed means a foe has a 4 square charge range, 6 squares if it eats a -5 to hit and gives out combat advantage.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't see how you can rate something like that, objectively. For one thing, it's going to be different for different characters. A Dwarf with a Greataxe, who can use his Second Wind as a minor action, and does lots of weapon damage is facing a different trade-off from a Dragonborn with a shortsword & shield (not nearly so much damage, possibly bigger surge, only other option is standard action second wind). Obviously, it'll change situationally, too. If killing a specific enemy, this round, is critical, damage is worth much more than healing a bit; but, if you've used your second wind and the Cleric is tapped out, the ability to spend another healing surge is going to look like pure gold.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

So that begs the question, how much damage is the ability to spend a healing surge really worth?

Level-dependent. If I have a choice between doing 40 damage to a level 1 standard monster and stunning it, I'll take the 40 damage (and it will die). If I have a choice between doing 40 damage to Orcus and stunning him for a round, it's likely that stunning is the more valuable choice.

 

[DracoSuave]

Level-dependent. If I have a choice between doing 40 damage to a level 1 standard monster and stunning it, I'll take the 40 damage (and it will die). If I have a choice between doing 40 damage to Orcus and stunning him for a round, it's likely that stunning is the more valuable choice.

Also party-dependant. Different statuses have different values based on different roles in the group.

 

[Mengu]

Also depends on whether you can take the target down with the attack or not. There is no point in immobilizing, slowing, or stunning a target that's about to die with one of your ally's next attacks.

I think this is where part of the fun comes in. When picking powers, you pick some that do a lot of damage, and some that have a variety of secondary effects, and use the best one for any given situation.

However as far as those effects go, melee attacks that slow the target just make me scratch my head. So those powers would be worth the least to me. I'll take any extra damage, over a melee slow effect. Range slow effects can be quite a bit more useful, but they are still fairly low on the totem pole. I'd say the order of status powers (high to low) goes something like:

stunned
blinded
restrained
dazed
gives combat advantage
immobilized
prone
slowed
deafened

powers that weaken opponents are more in line with powers that give resistance, defense bonus, temporary hit points, or regaining hit points. The order of these, high to low would be something like:

temporary hitpoints
resistance
regain hitpoints
defense bonus
weakened

It's kind of hard to mesh these with status effects inflicted upon foes, and even harder to say how much damage is each of these effects worth. Healing surges also don't quite fit in these lists, since they are a limited resource.

It would be entirely too complex to try and assign a value to different effects. And there is no single way to effectively use them. Variety makes your character adaptable, but who is to say no to a character bent on a half dozen ways to regain hitpoints?

 

[darkadelphia]

It seems like everyone's responding to Stalker0 as if he's asking the question prescriptively (what SHOULD it be worth). That's interesting and all, but I read it originally as a question about descriptive observations--has anyone attempted to reverse engineer the value of different status effects by comparing powers of the same level?

 

[mneme]

A
stunned
blinded
restrained
dazed
gives combat advantage
immobilized
prone
slowed
deafened

Er, just a quibble, but since prone and immobilized opponents grant combat advantage (in the case of prone opponents, only to melee attacks), those -have- to be superior to granting combat advantage, or very close to it (ok, immobilized is much better than prone, since it lets your ranged rogue get her licks in). Also, prone, immobolized, and even slowed become much better when you can either move away after a hit or move the opponent -- if you're working with a thunderwave wizard, you might be able to rely on slowed avoiding the enemy's comeback (they need to be able to knock the enemy at least 2 spaces, and probably at least 4 to avoid a charge), and regardless, knocking an opponent prone or immobolizing them and then backing off with a shift will usually ruin their round (kinda stupidly, actualy, in the case of Prone, since given Charge, they can use a move action to stand, and can then only attack if there's someone close enough to charge (but if you shifted away, you're -too- close to charge); this is kinda ok if you're a pally or fighter, since you've presumably marked the opponent; I don't like Charge much as currently worded; it should really only work if you moved at least 2 during your -move- action to let you move 1+ spaces and then attack).

 

[Nail]

Er, just a quibble, but since prone and immobilized opponents grant combat advantage

Immobilized does NOT grant combat advantage.

 

[mattador]

I've been working on a point-buy breakdown of powers. I started with the martial source guys since I figured that would be the easiest. I've got some ballpark costs for most effects, but every once in a while an existing power just does not fit in with others of it's level.

I'll submit some for scrutiny when I have more done...