D&D 5E How much should 5e aim at balance?

[timASW]

Still, my game was broken in half by an Illusionist with craft wondrous items.

I desperately want to hear the story behind this, because I find it pretty much unimaginable.

 

[GreyICE]

Good. Then go play your vanilla version. But don't go thinking that your vanilla version is how the game has and should be played. This is a fantasy game, not a superheroes game. I submit that anyone who is wanting "balance" really just wants Superman and Batman in a fantasy setting. If you want Middleearth, or Narnia, or even Barsoom, "balance" goes out the window.

I submit, as someone who wants balance, I do not "just want Superman and Batman in a fantasy setting." That is, frankly, completely insulting and dismissive. I don't see any reason why the settings of Middle Earth, Narnia, or Barsoom explicitly prevent balanced PCs. Or even implicitly prevent balanced PCs.

Honestly, can this be explained for me? Because I really don't grasp it.

(I'll ignore the badwrongfun implications of there being certain ways a system SHOULD be played because frankly the discussion is unproductive and pointless)

 

[Ahnehnois]

The Druid is ridiculously overpowered.

They why are mine always so balanced?

Lets not mince words. Reality is not a subjective experience.

Let's not mince words. Fantasy roleplaying games are not played in reality.

I really don't think reality denial helps anything.

Am I denying that D&D, including 3e, needs some revision? Of course not. Am I denying these ridiculous straw men about druids that can never ever be balanced? Yes. When you make blanket statements like this...

an 11th level druid will tear through encounters at a pace that an 11th level fighter can only dream of

...they're easy to refute. I've had druids and fighters played side by side to and past that level, and that definitively did not happen. Could it happen? Yes. Will it happen? Maybe. It's not written in the rules that it will.

 

[hamstertamer]

No, I'm sorry, no. It's not due to prolonged rests. It's due to far more fundamental things than that.

When I played a druid, I used to just shut entire encounters down with Blinding Spittle or Kelpstrands. To the point that random enemies started carrying water jugs JUST to deal with Blinding Spittle. It wasn't even suggested that this was anything other than a metagame decision. Spiritjaws can just shut down a caster encounter right quick. And when you're hitting higher levels you have things like multiple castings of Baleful Polymorph and Mummify, yeah. Not good.

The lower level spells that just end encounters can quickly get out of control.

I don't understand your point.

1. I don't balance the adventuring day on a single battle or encounter and the game was never meant to be pre-4th edition. We usually have several battles and conflicts to overcome in one day (of course depending).

2. I don't allow nonsense from supplemental material either with some exceptions. Most of those spells you mentioned I've never seen before and no one has every put something on their character sheet without asking first. This seems like common sense to me. I fact I stopped buying materials when 3.5 came out because I considered most of it junk.

I honestly think we are running on a different set of assumptions here, and don't think we will be able to communicate very well but I can try.

You seen to believe that no playstyle works with 3rd edition (and older editions) and you will never accept an explanation of how it does. Strange how it does work for others (including me) but not for you. The answer is people play the game in different ways. You for some reason can't believe that.

If your group really has a thing for every encounter must be balanced and every class must be equal in combat effectiveness then congratulations 4th edition is what you have been waiting for.

But it just doesn't do it for me.

 

[GreyICE]

Look, as I've said before, you can play Superman next to Zorro, and not have Superman be overpowered. It just has to take very specific sets of circumstances. All the enemies need Kryptonite. Lots of Kryptonite. I mean we're talking Kryptonite bullets, Kryptonite armor, Kryptonite Grenades, Kryptonite buildings. But lots of Kryptonite.

Also Superman has to take a few levels in total stupidity and equip the idiot ball so he doesn't do things like go grab the nearest water tower and dump tens of thousands of gallons of water on the villains, or (if he's feeling slightly less pacifistic) reduce them to component atoms from low earth orbit with his heat vision. And there will still be times Zorro is totally outclassed, I mean come on, this is SUPERMAN here, and Zorro is a guy in a mask with a sword. But I mean it totally can work.

If a system does such a thing accidentally, that's one thing. Stuff happens. But to say it's good system design to allow it to happen, knowingly? No.

BTW, wanna run the Druid challenge?

It's simple. Pick a level above 7. Ban what spells you wish from the Druid list (I suggest Venomfire and Blinding Spittle at a bare minimum, and Shapeshift is obv obv obv if you're picking a level THAT high). Hell, limit us to the core books. Then we'll design a set of five encounters designed to test how well each character handles combat. I mean it's not like the Fighter brings much to the table besides combat. Party buffs? No. Healing? No. Tanking? Heh, walls of summons do that better.

Shall we pick level 11? I like that level, lots of good things happening there.

 

[Hussar]

Quick aside here: Seriously, you can't use copy/paste? A lot of people on these boards have hard to spell screen names; these are fantasy rpg boards. (Or is there an Aenosis here?).

Ahh, my bad. I tend to type too quickly and didn't look it up. Sorry about that.

In sales, not in players. Sales that also ignore the entire group of extant 3e players, and the fact that while many may be using DDI for a subscription fee, PF is free, and there are also a variety of other 3e-based systems out there. No one knows the numbers, but I feel comfortable in my educated guess. That is all.

And where is this education? What are you basing this off of? What facts can you bring forward to call this an "educated" guess.

I'm pretty sure you could ignore that statement and still see the point.

I don't think they've learned their lesson.



So why not just do that?

That's precisely what they did. They plugged the great big freaking holes. Only problem is, now we have people who will swear up and down that these holes don't exist or only exist because some people are too incompetent to play the game right.

 

[Hussar]

They why are mine always so balanced?

/snip

How? How could those two characters possibly be considered balanced?

The druid has more skills than the fighter - is better in any non-combat situation.

The druid probably has similar HP to the fighter - slight advantage fighter.

The druid's animal companion (lessee, 11th level druid - Polar Bear is straight from the SRD - potentially 48 points of damage/round (without any buffs) plus improved grab) plus the druid's own BAB of +8 means that the druid is going to be doing far more damage per round than the fighter. - advantage druid.

The druid has 6th level spells. Compared to the fighters 6 bonus feats. - yeah, that's an advantage druid.

In what way is the fighter even remotely comparable to the druid?

/edit - thanks for the catch Lanefan.

 

[Lanefan]

The druid's animal companion (lessee, 11th level druid - Polar Bear is straight from the SRD - potentially 48 points of damage/round (without any buffs) plus improved grab) plus the druid's own BAB of +8 means that the druid is going to be doing far more damage per round than the fighter. - advantage fighter.

I think you mean advantage druid...

In what way is the fighter even remotely comparable to the druid?

I'd suspect the fighter might gain another small advantage when it comes to AC as she can wear any armour and shield where the druid cannot - unless he burns a few feats better used elsewhere.

The biggest headache is the animal companion. If it was restricted to a similar list as MU's familiars (i.e. a small animal or bird that fights for you only in the direst of emergencies) then no problem. But to allow any normal animal is asking for trouble.

Lanefan

 

[GreyICE]

Bah, right from the Core DMG, I can use Wild Dragonhide Plate, for a fun +8 bonus to AC, or I can branch into Monk's Belt for a 1+Wisdom bonus to AC, which will quickly outstrip anything the fighter can do because either stack with wildshape.

 

[Hussar]

I think you mean advantage druid...
I'd suspect the fighter might gain another small advantage when it comes to AC as she can wear any armour and shield where the druid cannot - unless he burns a few feats better used elsewhere.

The biggest headache is the animal companion. If it was restricted to a similar list as MU's familiars (i.e. a small animal or bird that fights for you only in the direst of emergencies) then no problem. But to allow any normal animal is asking for trouble.

Lanefan

Honestly that AC thing isn't that hard to get around. Even Barkskin (level 2 spell) gives me +4 natural armor bonus for 2 hours (4 with a fairly easy feat). Add that into my Wild Shape and I can get some pretty ridiculous AC's.

Or, to put it another way, with that spell, my AC in leather armor is only two worse than full plate and I don't suffer any limitations to my Dex bonus for wearing heavy armor. I can potentially cast that 5 times per day if I want to burn all my 2nd level spells. But, even at twice per day, that's going to cover a LOT of the adventuring day.

Let's not forget that I haven't actually cast any spells yet. Even a simple Summon Nature's Ally combined with Animal Growth and I leave the offensive power of a vanilla fighter (particularly if we're limited to core) laughably in the dust.

So, again, how are these two characters even REMOTELY balanced.

It's one thing not to care about it. I don't honestly. If Bill's druid is way better than my fighter, I don't really care so long as I'm having fun with my fighter. But, that's not the issue. Not caring about it doesn't mean that the issue isn't there.