How much should players be expected to actively contribute to the group's dynamics?

[innerdude]

Well, I can't say as I'm surprised, but I just got off the phone with one of my players. The gist of the conversation: "I'm just not getting much out of the game right now."

To put some of this into perspective: This player has been a part of my same general gaming group for close to 6 years. He and I were both players under a different GM for three or four years, but when the old GM sort of fell off the deep end we started getting our own group together. I could sort of see this coming, and I don't think I can totally disagree with him on his assessment.

Two of the better players in our current Pathfinder group have been completely MIA since the first week of December. Prior to that, they were generally there for at least 2 out of every 3 sessions, usually more. But since then, they've been just.....gone.

As a result, the other three players (besides my friend Jared) consist of my wife, my wife's sister, and the sister's boyfriend.

As much as a I love my wife, she roleplays with us because she knows I enjoy it--not because she has a particular passion for it. She enjoys the aspects of playing the game, and with the right coaching her characters are always effective, but she never really makes any decisions for the group collectively. Her characters have no agenda, they're just there. The sister is a little better; she at least puts some personality in her characters--but not much else. Her idea of a character concept rarely goes much beyond some superficial mechanical or personality aspect that she essentially pushes the "repeat" button on throughout the sessions.

And the boyfriend supposedly is an experienced WoD player, but I have yet to see in two months of play where that experience has manifest itself at the table.

None of the three of them ever do anything unexpected, nor rise to any sort of interaction at the table beyond "mildly amusing" or "semi-interesting." And my friend Jared feels like he's pulling dead weight to get things to happen. They're the epitome of "Smells Like Teen Spirit": Here we are now, entertain us!

And now I'm left wondering: How much can/should/do I realistically expect a player to bring to the table to add to the group's fun?

Some GM's would probably say, "If they want to be there, can manage to shower 3 times a week, and are literate enough to work their character, they should have a place in a group." But if that's really all a player is bringing, are they doing enough?

When I'm on the other side of the aisle as a player, I'm constantly looking for ways to keep game interaction going. I talk to NPCs. I want to explore surroundings. I generally play a character with motivations, because I assume the GM is creating a world consistent with that outlook. I'm not saying every player has to be hardcore into it. But I'm beginning to think that every group needs a player who shows up and tries to be a little bit more than a pawn for the encounters. Someone who wants to interact with the milieu of the world.

And say what you will about power gamers--but their motivations are transparent, and they're generally easy to please, and they're certainly proactive. In that regard I'd rather have a table of raging power gamers than a table of passive dice-rollers.

But as C.S. Lewis once said comparing a whore to a self-righteous prig, "Of course it is better to be neither."

At this point I feel about roleplaying the same way I do about volleyball. When I discovered what "real" volleyball was like--meaning players knew how to play, were skilled at it, and understood the game--I could never go back to playing "hack" volleyball. It bored me.

And now I'm the same way with my RPG experiences. I'd rather not play at all than to play at a sub-par level.

So do we abandon the group and start over? Go our separate ways and say it was fun while it lasted? Should I talk to the players about it? And is it unreasonable to expect players to bring something other than their dice and a smile when they sit down to play?

 

[fuzzlewump]

I don't have a lot of insight for your situation, but I agree with you on the whole. No matter what group it is or game we play I expect a level of player engagement. If that's not there, then I just say it's not fun for me and welcome someone else DM instead.

On that note, I would voice your concerns to your players, and recommend that if this is par for the course that you'd like one of them to run the game instead. If you aren't enjoying yourself, then something needs to change. Plus, I've found that switching between DMing and playing makes you better at both. DMing lets you know what makes being a DM fun, and being a player lets you know how being a player is fun. After playing both, one of your willing players could end up being a good DM, or will understand where you are coming from and become a better player. That's just from my personal experience, YMMV.

 

[SoulsFury]

What I don't get, is that one of my players DMs every once in a while to give me a break. While I am the player, I do like you said, I'm very enthusiastic and try to keep game play running smoothly. I don't complain, I roll roles, and I try to stay interested. When that same player plays, he does everything he can to slow the game down it seems.

He will purposely take the group on a several day trek out of the way, just because the other players are just followers. I thought turning him into a werescorpion would tell him to not fly in random directions, but maybe I'm gonna have to kill the character.

 

[Coldwyn]

[MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION]

As I see it, you´ve basically got two kinds of people at hand: dedicated roleplayers who come over to roleplay and friends/family who just want to game and spent an entertaining evening together.

I don´t really think this mixes too well because of totally different goals (active vs. passive entertainment).

In that situation, I´d try two things:
Either stop rpg´ing for a while and play some co-op games like Shadows over Camelot, Castle Panic or Pandemic. Do not try near-RPG games like Descent oder Wrath of Ansh-something. Watch your gamers behaviour closely and draw your conclusions.
Or change the focus of your game. Each and every one of us is engaged by certain topics and happenings. It may be hard, but finding out what is most enaging to a person may be worthwhile.
Small example: My wife was totally against rpgs and never wanted to participate in a session until she saw me preparing notes from Traveller: Merchant Prince and took note. She´s really into economics, visiting evening college to get a second degree (MBA) and talked two of our neighbours into it as well. Ok, I admit, ít´s a bore for me but I don´t have to do any real prep-work because they won´t stop flooding me with what they want to do, their goals, milestones they want to reach and so on, so on we go with happy belt mining every second sunday afternoon.

 

[steeldragons]

To answer your initial question: "How much players be expected to bring to the table?"

The short answer? Preferably/Ideally? LOTS!

The slightly longer answer? If they are not bringing anything to the table then why are they playing? Or put another way, the game can only ever be as good as those playing (and that includes the DM) make it. That is the nature of the RPG-You're playing to have fun. Everyone has a responsibility to the others at the table to contribute to that fun.

In the case of your wife, I understand (and have gamed with plenty of people where this is the case) the social element. She's there to join in an activity/interest with you/together...If that's all she needs to get something out of the game, then that's all she can be expected to bring. Because that's all she needs to be having a good time there.

As to the other player who 'isn't getting anything out of the game anymore', then what is it he would LIKE to get out of the game? And how can you, as the DM, provide that? And his fellow players as well!

This is a group activity. Working things out between DM and single player in a scenario like this, really isn't the way to go, IMHO. The player needs to discuss things with his fellow players, as well as you...especially if his reasonfor his current opinion is the other players not pulling their RPing weight.

And if you, as the DM, are not getting much out of the game at the moment, then I'll echo the recommendation to talk to your players about it.

The REAL question is not how much can the players be expected to bring, but how much is EVERYONE (including the DM) expected to bring to the table? Everyone at the table has a role and responsibility to make the gaming experience as a whole as enjoyable as possible for all involved.

I am...distracted by curiosity as to what happened in your game at the beginning of Dec? How did the last session these MIA players were in end? Why/how did these two other players just disappear?

If you can get an answer to that (and again, an open dialogue of expectation for the game) maybe they will come back...your friend won't feel like he's pulling "the dead weight", he'll be happy...and perhaps, the less active gamers at the table will "Step up" their game.

Bottom line though, a point blank discussion, Note:"discussion" not "argument" or accusations or rude or anything. Just open, honest discussion with everyone at the table about what they (and YOU) WANT out of the game and what, perhaps mistakenly, each person is expecting out of the others (including the DM).

If passively rolling dice is enough for some players who are just there for the social time, coupla beers and laughs, to have a good time...well...then there's little you can do except voice your expectations for engaged players.

 

[delericho]

As a collective, the players need to bring as much to the game as the GM.

Now, in a typical group, you'll generally find that one or two players are really dedicated, and a bunch of the rest are mostly just there to hang out. That's probably fine, as the dedicated players will bring enough to the table to cover the rest.

The problem the OP seems to be having is that two of his three 'dedicated players' have dropped away, leaving only one guy to try to carry the full "players' load" for the group, and it's just not working.

Unfortunately, there's not really anything I can recommend. The less active players are unlikely to suddenly become really dedicated, even if you voice your concerns. They're probably just not that into it.

Could you try to recruit some new blood? Or try to find out why the other two guys left and maybe get them back?

 

[Insight]

The worst thing you can do is fail to communicate and continue the status quo. In that situation, nothing gets better and you're still bored and/or miserable. You should find out WHY your players are making the effort to come to the game at all and discuss with them your EXPECTATIONS from the players. If they cannot or will not meet those expectations, is there a middle ground?

Maybe the players need some direction. Maybe some of them are uncomfortable speaking out. Maybe they're just there to roll some dice and have fun with their friends. Keep in mind that their version of fun may differ from yours (and it sounds like it does!).

 

[engrishonly]

You can't just lay it down and think, "Players, play the hell out of my sh*t.". Do your players know what you want? Do you know what your players want? Like, really know explicitly?

Yes, players can sit like lumps, so you have to get at their wants/needs... And, yes, maybe they don't even like the idea of an RPG, but maybe they just don't like the game/scenario you play! This is not your fault. It's a roleplaying hell you've created together.

Get their intentions on the table. Get them to draw the map of the situation for you, and then challenge all that they hold dear. Everything should begin and end with what the players want. What I think is hard is to play a game with no explicit direction from my players.

A player brings everything, and your job is to bring it out... The job is not to show them how brilliant you are in designing death traps or pixelbitchfests in a vacuum. It is all about the things your players carry with them. Threaten their stuff, the hopes & dreams inside their hearts, the little and the big fears in their heads.

It does start with you, though. You have to lay down your expectations. You have to show leadership and character in this. Be the example for them to share, not a tyrant or a dictator at the table.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

So do we abandon the group and start over? Go our separate ways and say it was fun while it lasted? Should I talk to the players about it? And is it unreasonable to expect players to bring something other than their dice and a smile when they sit down to play?

I wouldn't abandon the group just yet. I'd first talk with everyone (primarily the non-engaging players) about what they want out of a game. What parts of the game get them excited and what they would like to see more of.

It's possible that what the non-engaging players want out of a game is something that you could easily accomodate and in turn they'd become more engaged in the game.

That said, if what they want out of a game is different than what you and your other player want out of a game, it's okay to part ways. With it discussed openly it shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings and would hopefully lead to everyone finding a gaming group with shared interests.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

How do the more social gamers in the group feel about mechanics? Reason I ask is that I have a couple of social gamers that are strangely fine with lots of crunch. As long as they tell me generally what their characters should be able to do, I managed the crunch of character creation, and then they take it from there--we can play Hero or Burning Wheel or other such games. If your social gamers are of this nature, then playing a game with some built in motivations (such as BW) might help, or simply playing a game with significantly different mechanics may engage them enough to get into the story again as well.

OTOH, if they are the opposite, then they might be more interested in the roleplaying angle if the crunch wasn't distracting them and/or taking all of their energy. So switching to something lighter would help.