How MYTHIC are your bad guys?

[barsoomcore]

Lately I'm fascinated by people doing terrible things in pursuit of lofty goals -- maybe it's just current events seeping into my brain.

Me, too! My PCs recently had a sit-down with nasty old Madame Yuek and in getting tidbits of information about assorted bad guys they asked, "What do these guys want?" Yuek's answer: "They want to save the world. We all want to save the world. From each other."

My thinking is that when you perceive a threat, and you want to counter it, you need to increase your own power to the point where you can face that threat. And of course, in doing so, you become perceived as a threat by others. So many of my "bad guys" became bad in order to defeat something terrible -- and in the process became terrible themselves. So now there's a variety of individuals who are near demi-gods in power, all of whom consider (and rightly, it seems) each other to be terrible threats to the world. So now they're all jockeying for position, trying to eliminate each other.

They don't see themselves as bad guys -- they think they're saving the world. Which they are, because unless these other nasties are stopped, things are going to be very uncomfortable. The problem is that they're just as nasty as the others. The PCs, obviously, are those who have to try and stop all of them -- but what will they become in the process?

Not that it matters, but Camille Paglia really makes me itch.

I can't say I agree with all of (or even many of) her statements, but I think a lot after reading her, which is worth a great deal. Not many writers do that to me.

 

[Psion]

Barsoom,

I find your use of the word "Mythic" odd. Your villains, while interesting, strike me as more "allegorical" or "symbolic" than mythic. Some myths are allegorical, so perhaps that is what you are getting at, but when I hear the term mythic, I think of things resembling popular myths and legends, like the oddessy, the monkey king, etc. Titans in Scarred lands are what I think of as "mythic."

Personally, I think that subtle allegories are useful, but when you make them so apparent, it can really negatively impact a game. If I am in character and I realize that I am fighting an allegory, it really kills SOD for me.

That said:

Then there was template/creature called Bloodless in CC2. None of my RL gaming friends who read about that monster thought it was good idea to use, or even scary. It just lacked something that feeds imagination and scares, though it had a lot of elements. Maybe that's just it, it had too many of them. Checked, it still makes me go 'yawn', maybe it's partially that 'Poison Elves'-style picture.

Heh... I didn't like it at first glance, either.

But then one day I started making up a villain (based off of a Clark Ashton Smith story) that was an immortal wizard with an odd obsession for beauty but who decried the withering of beauty with age. He had the annoying tendency to kidnap pretty young ladies and make them into statues so he could preserve them over the years.

I never really defined HOW he was immortal, but I knew I didn't want him to be a lich. I was looking at the Conundrum Creature template and chanced to look at the bloodless again. It occurred to me that the template was perfect for what I was looking for.

Now I have a very creepy villain in my game that I think will persist for some time. For more info, see:

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1286

 

[barsoomcore]

I find your use of the word "Mythic" odd. Your villains, while interesting, strike me as more "allegorical" or "symbolic" than mythic.

Well, sure, call it whatever you like. Well, don't call it allegory. I HATE allegory. Other than that, I don't really care what word is used. I think you get the idea, though it seems you're over-stating the condition of my campaign. And once again I beg leave to point out that I didn't set out to make "symbolic" bad guys, I just tried to make scary bad guys and then looked at them and realised they had symbolic significance. Looking at my campaign as though it were a novel or some such lit'ry thing, and analysing the MEANING of the characters. As opposed to the other way around, you see?

Personally, I think that subtle allegories are useful, but when you make them so apparent, it can really negatively impact a game. If I am in character and I realize that I am fighting an allegory, it really kills SOD for me.

My PCs are NEVER fighting an allegory, a symbol or a myth. They are fighting people, first and foremost. The fact that the people they're fighting happen to demonstrate certain symbolic archetypes doesn't reduce those people to some sort of allegorical pawns.

The whole point was that I noticed that my NPCs were really scaring my players, and being that both myself and my wife are of literary bents, we took a look at them with a critical eye, and found that they had archetypal characteristics. And I wondered if other DMs, when they looked at their scariest bad guys, found the same. I may not have put this question forward with sufficient clarity, and I'm probably not right now.

I guess what I'm asking for is a critical analysis of your campaign's bad guys. Not the math, not the inspiration, but their symbolic meaning (given that all art possesses symbolic meaning and that an rpg campaign is on some level a form of artisitc expression). I understand that not everyone's equipped to provide that, but I'll eat this monitor if I possess the only English degree (or and Lit degree) on this board.

 

[Warrior Poet]

English degree (or Lit degree) on this board

Right here …

I didn't set out to make "symbolic" bad guys, I just tried to make scary bad guys and then looked at them and realised they had symbolic significance.

… Like you, I haven’t set out to create specifically symbolic NPCs, but I confess I haven’t put as much thought into the symbolic nature of my NPCs (villains or otherwise) after the fact as you seem to have done … Hmmm … perhaps I don’t deserve that degree after all … <grin>

And (he said, starting the sentence with a conjunction) now that you mention it, and now that I think about it, the Wendigo may be more allegory (or more allegorical) than symbol (or symbolic) …

Anyway, I simply try to help the players, and myself, tell a “ripping good yarn.” I suspect you do, too, based on your statement that,

My PCs are NEVER fighting an allegory, a symbol or a myth. They are fighting people, first and foremost. The fact that the people they're fighting happen to demonstrate certain symbolic archetypes doesn't reduce those people to some sort of allegorical pawns.

The story (its “meatiness”) is very important to me. Until you brought it up, however, I hadn’t really examined my NPC villains for any symbolic aspects they might embody. Of course, I also haven’t been the DM in over 2 years.

At any rate, I’m impressed with the depth you’ve plumbed in thinking about your villains and their motiviations, as well as what they symbolize. I see that I missed (or misunderstood) much of what you were saying in earlier posts.

Time to withdraw and work on my close reading skills – and maybe think about grad school . Thanks for your thoughts – a most interesting thread.

Warrior Poet

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Heh... I didn't like it at first glance, either.

But then one day I started making up a villain (based off of a Clark Ashton Smith story) that was an immortal wizard with an odd obsession for beauty but who decried the withering of beauty with age. He had the annoying tendency to kidnap pretty young ladies and make them into statues so he could preserve them over the years.

Now I have a very creepy villain in my game that I think will persist for some time. For more info, see:

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1286

Yep, when dm has an inspiration, it helps getting over any prior dislikes. My problem with the whole idea of bloodless is whole mix and mash thing. White Wolf Vampire game Toreador/Poison elf art, bard/sorcerer bane (now why it won't just drain con, that would drop those allocations), whole term bloodless and it's certain silliness compared to background. Too much steals charisma thing. And that whole souls from Chardun's hell thing brought to my mind vampires from Buffy the vampire slayer (human soul replaced with demon spirit). With background like that creature has more potential than become just another vampire, called um 'bloodless'. Uh, and it seem more like dark lord from Ravenloft, than a template to me.

Yep, these are all allocations I would throw out of window if I had good npc idea from that template. I usually have from such evil character few good plot-ideas. This one leaves me empty for some reason.

Now, I go reading your thread.