How natural is natural? Best 3 of 6?

[TheEvil]

The skill power Nature Sense from PHB3 says that the power is triggered when "You would roll initiative in a natural environment."

So what constitutes a 'natural' environment?

If you are in a natural cavern that has had it floor, stalagmites removed and leveled out, is it still a natural environment? How about if a stone wall is constructed across it?

This came up when the party ranger was looking at powers and the provoked a discussion within the group. The GM was thinking of a '3-sides of the cube' approach, that is if 3 of the 6 faces of the 'cube' that is a character are natural, then the power works. In the above scenarios, Nature sense would work because only 2 of the 6 'sides' (floor and one wall) are worked, the other 4 are natural.

Please answer the poll and and post if you have any suggestions for how this has been handled in your groups.

 

[weem]

I chose...

4. A better way: See post.

...even though I don't really think this is a BETTER way, this is simply my thought process (out loud) on making a call on the spot (and no other option matches that closer in the poll)...


...for me, I would call it as a DM myself based on the circumstances instead of using a hardset rule.

I looked through the compendium a bit to see if it could help me come to quicker answer in play, and this is all I could muster during a quick look...

"Natural" (Glossary) as it relates to creatures/monsters = Natural creatures are native to the natural world.

"Native to the natural world"...

To me, the cave (or any cave really) is a natural environment. Just because you needed a shovel or pick to get there (in some cases), doesn't make it less natural. Just because you can now fly because of a new power, does not make the tree top you can now access unnatural. These places existed before you were able to access them.

I think, at least for me, the line is drawn when you feel like the natural aspect , or living aspect of these environments are "dead".

What I mean is, a Druid (for example) might draw power from, or gain power based on the power of nature around him/her. To them, nature is a living breathing thing. Not just animals, insects and plants, but stone, trees, dirt, etc.

And what you are trying to determine is, when does that natural power fade - or in other words, when does this nature "die" in effect. When would someone like a Druid say, "this place is dead" or is beyond the healing power of any other living creature.

So I would say again, as a DM I would make this call on the spot. I would be sure to let the player know ahead of time so as not to waste anything that may rely on it. They may ask, "is this a natural environment" for example, and I might say....

- "This cavern was once flowing with life, but it's long abuse my mankind over many years has pushed back any remaining natural essences"

or

- "Though man has caused much harm here in these many months, the essence of life remains, albeit in a weakened state"

Take things into consideration really quick such as "how long as this cave been used by man, what tools were used? careful digging, or explosives? etc. I think that I could give an answer to a player pretty quickly in this way by taking into consideration the situation at hand. A set in stone ruling for this just wouldn't work for me.

 

[DracoSuave]

3 sides of the cube what?


Alright, seriously, that's way too technical for what is essentially a judgement call.


And it's not even what the ability says. 'Environment' is not 'The square you occupy.' It's rather larger than that.

So, let's say you're beside a castle. Do castles appear in nature? No? That's not a natural environment. Go far enough away from the castle that it's merely distant scenery and you're in the forest? That's a natural environment.

Really tho, it's a DM's call... but if they're going so utterly technical to be discussion cubes and all that, they're doing it wrong. Chances are, if you need to apply a '2 sides of the cube is' approach, the environment -ain't- natural.

 

[Jhaelen]

Alright, seriously, that's way too technical for what is essentially a judgement call.

Exactly. I would make no attempt to quantify this in any way and just rule it on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Piratecat]

I'd rule this the same way that Dracosuave does. Look around you. Does it appear in nature, or has it been somehow transformed?

In corner cases, like an elven glade full of bonsai trees, I'd err on the part of the PC.

 

[P1NBACK]

This is an example of a poorly worded power with good intent.

I think for most people, the best answer is "whatever makes sense". If everyone at the table can agree it's a "natural" environment, then the power works. If not, then it doesn't work.

I'd say any environment you could "forage" in would apply for this power.

 

[Klaus]

I'd rule this the same way that Dracosuave does. Look around you. Does it appear in nature, or has it been somehow transformed?

In corner cases, like an elven glade full of bonsai trees, I'd err on the part of the PC.

This, although I'm puzzled at why elves would keep bonsai. You'd think gnomes would be to blame.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Just a comment on the "3 sides" theory - by that logic, standing in the middle of a parking lot would count as a natural environment, which to me seems a peculiar definition of natural...

 

[TheEvil]

To Clarify...

I can see I did not provide quite enough info, by 3 sides of the cube, it was not intended that the immediate squares adjacent to the character where the one looked at (see parking lot example), but the terrain/vertical surfaces in that direction.

In the parking lot example, 5 of the six sides (hard to make the sky unnatural) are man-made, assuming a reasonably large parking lot. Likewise, underground or in an urban area would be to nearby vertical surfaces.

I does sound like the general opinion so far is that the GM just has to make a case by case call rather then trying to codify things.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think that your DM has picked a fine way to make his decision, but if I were him, I wouldn't make it the rule. The rule is that the scenario is DM fiat - this just happens to be a handy guideline. I can imagine situations where the DM might go contrary to the guideline in either direction.