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<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 7546340" data-attributes="member: 6704184"><p>That isn't what is happening here. I'm going to quote the entire exchange, because I'm a bit annoyed that you are doing this, now. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, you seem to have forgotten what the starting statements were. I said the above, positing that the difference wasn't so great that the average player was going to be hurting over it...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You responded, positing that damage feats will make the significant difference. By implication, I concluded that you were saying this in direct opposition to what I'd said...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Obviously, I thought you were suggesting some incompatibility between the damage feats and melee weapon cantrips. I here present my doubt about being able to use the -5+10 regularly. At no point have either of us made this about the Battlemaster Fighter, specifically. It's pretty clear the discussion is in regards to the general case, so our statements should be true in general, not only in very specific white room cases. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Btw, 2-3? What is the 3rd attack? From killing your foe or scoring a crit? Doesn't reference Attack Action, just an attack, so I was confused, but I just let it slide. You didn't use a third attack later, in any case, I'm just curious. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, another poster said that it's a 4 dpr difference. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You countered. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, no white room stuff that doesn't play out in actual games. i said that before you posted the numbers. And yet...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My response was entirely within the bounds of what I'd said. Your numbers are white room in the extreme. Not only does it assume a single build, it assumes that you're somehow using Precision Attack <em>with every single attack</em>. That is "so white room as to be useless."</p><p></p><p>A Fighter 4 also can't do that all day. Period. Even a level 7 Fighter with the extra die from the feat can only do that for a short time. A level 4 fighter who used their feat to get GWM can do that for two turns. Maybe your group gets a short rest after every fight, but I doubt that most groups do. </p><p></p><p>And if your Fighter never needs any other Manuever, your DM isn't challenging you. My BM fighters need Parry, and Disarm, and Goading Strike, etc. The ones that have the feat, only use it when they have advantage, or against a low AC enemy. </p><p></p><p>So, in the end, you proved that a single build will miss the extra attack for part of the day, and only if we assume that the secondary damage from the cantrip never happens, and don't calculate in any other spell benefits, and assume that their main subclass feature is turned into "spam one manuever always, twice a turn, and then have a terrible to-hit the rest of the time before a short rest." </p><p></p><p>Seems to me, my first take was right. The difference isn't that much, in general. You won't be noticeably worse off for it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 7546340, member: 6704184"] That isn't what is happening here. I'm going to quote the entire exchange, because I'm a bit annoyed that you are doing this, now. First, you seem to have forgotten what the starting statements were. I said the above, positing that the difference wasn't so great that the average player was going to be hurting over it... You responded, positing that damage feats will make the significant difference. By implication, I concluded that you were saying this in direct opposition to what I'd said... Obviously, I thought you were suggesting some incompatibility between the damage feats and melee weapon cantrips. I here present my doubt about being able to use the -5+10 regularly. At no point have either of us made this about the Battlemaster Fighter, specifically. It's pretty clear the discussion is in regards to the general case, so our statements should be true in general, not only in very specific white room cases. Btw, 2-3? What is the 3rd attack? From killing your foe or scoring a crit? Doesn't reference Attack Action, just an attack, so I was confused, but I just let it slide. You didn't use a third attack later, in any case, I'm just curious. Anyway, another poster said that it's a 4 dpr difference. You countered. Again, no white room stuff that doesn't play out in actual games. i said that before you posted the numbers. And yet... My response was entirely within the bounds of what I'd said. Your numbers are white room in the extreme. Not only does it assume a single build, it assumes that you're somehow using Precision Attack [I]with every single attack[/I]. That is "so white room as to be useless." A Fighter 4 also can't do that all day. Period. Even a level 7 Fighter with the extra die from the feat can only do that for a short time. A level 4 fighter who used their feat to get GWM can do that for two turns. Maybe your group gets a short rest after every fight, but I doubt that most groups do. And if your Fighter never needs any other Manuever, your DM isn't challenging you. My BM fighters need Parry, and Disarm, and Goading Strike, etc. The ones that have the feat, only use it when they have advantage, or against a low AC enemy. So, in the end, you proved that a single build will miss the extra attack for part of the day, and only if we assume that the secondary damage from the cantrip never happens, and don't calculate in any other spell benefits, and assume that their main subclass feature is turned into "spam one manuever always, twice a turn, and then have a terrible to-hit the rest of the time before a short rest." Seems to me, my first take was right. The difference isn't that much, in general. You won't be noticeably worse off for it. [/QUOTE]
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