How Quickly Do You Bounce Off a System?

[Wofano Wotanto]

Yeah, don't think you'd be doing that with a 13A Fighter.

Yeah, I only got to 3rd level on an index card with that class.

Now casters, yeah, no point in even trying to cram them into that small a space unless maybe you want to put your spells on separate cards - which might actually be helpful for finding them during play.

Many people seem to think there was a lot more there than there was.

There's a reason for that.

Spoiler: Whole bunch of OT chatter

You seem to be describing Space Patrol, the earlier edition. I owned the later Star Patrol (the 1980 edition - mine didn't have ships from media IPs that the 1982 version did), which uses a similar engine (if you can even call it that) but has the things I mentioned that Space Patrol is apparently missing. Didn't realize the two rules sets were so divergent, but SP1980 added a small but serviceable starship design, a decent if somewhat overcomplex starship combat system, and by the sound of it more skills, equipment and probably aliens - IIRC there were some taken from books that hadn't been published in 1977. There was also a rather nice (for its era) fold-out starship deck plan map (on par with the ones in Star Frontiers a few years later) and some counters in the box. According to wiki the rulebook jumped from Space Patrol's 32 pages to Star Patrol's 68, so there was certainly a lot more material even beyond the box stuffers.

The starship rules derived from an obscure 1976 wargame called Star Command, which shares the same setting and designer (Michael Scott Kutrick) as 1978's Strike Team Alpha ground combat wargame, and whose signature aliens the Shaanthra felinoids and T'Rana dino-lizardmen, both of whom showed up in Star Patrol. Even the ship artwork in SP1980 looks like the counter art from Star Command - which thrilled me, because the RPG added a bunch of new classes and I'd liked the original wargames quite a bit.

I'm curious, does Space Patrol mention the Shaanthra and T'Rana in it? Or are they a later addition that appeared with Star Patrol?

The following year's Starships & Spacemen from FGU was the far superior "Not Traveller" SF game. Easier to read, easier to run, actually has ships, has some very clearly "serial numbers painted over because we didn't get the license" aliens, some PC and 2 NPC-only.

Agreed, much more playable than Star Patrol, albeit less stuffed with content. It was also a lot more transparently Star Trek-derived. I remember it mostly for the totally-not-Romulans being a culture of religious fanatics happy to martyr themselves in combat, and the PC race that had to shed regularly, becoming invisible until their fur grew back. Odd touch, that.

Nice to see it's still going with a second edition, although it sure hasn't gotten less obvious about the Trek influence. I'm not quite nostalgic enough about it to have picked the new version up, though. Have you, and if so how's it look?

Flatbed Scanner and Printer = photocopier.

Yep. Which is why photocopiers are an endangered species these days.

I haven't been in an office supply store in twenty years, does Staples still do copy and print work?

 

[Thomas Shey]

FedEx and UPS offices have copiers for public use.

Yes. Now how close is one? This is just not the same situation as when you could find them in most drug stores.

Office Max/Office Depot has a copycenter in some locations.

Also not always exactly down the street. I'd have to look around to even locate one.

Many public libraries still have copiers; some have public use scanners and printers. One of the local colleges here has a public use 3d printer (FDM)...

That's at least a better argument.

On the other hand, probably a big percentage of people have a printer in their house.

 

[Retreater]

....but I'm not sure there's a photocopier to be found

The library where I work has several photocopiers/computer printers - and they're in use constantly. We have an app that lets people send files from their personal computers or phones to pick up the print jobs here. If printing is down for an hour due to the occasional upgrade, there's mass hysteria.
I can't imagine us not providing the copying service. It seems almost like a basic library function for people to be able to copy articles, sections from books, etc.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, I only got to 3rd level on an index card with that class.

Now casters, yeah, no point in even trying to cram them into that small a space unless maybe you want to put your spells on separate cards - which might actually be helpful for finding them during play.

I believe I've seen some 13A spellcards for sale on DTRPG.

Agreed, much more playable than Star Patrol, albeit less stuffed with content. It was also a lot more transparently Star Trek-derived. I remember it mostly for the totally-not-Romulans being a culture of religious fanatics happy to martyr themselves in combat, and the PC race that had to shed regularly, becoming invisible until their fur grew back. Odd touch, that.

Yeah, S&S was obviously ST derived, even if it did have a few elements from elsewhere.

Nice to see it's still going with a second edition, although it sure hasn't gotten less obvious about the Trek influence. I'm not quite nostalgic enough about it to have picked the new version up, though. Have you, and if so how's it look?

I did and--eh. But then, I'm less tolerant of D&D derived mechanics than I was decades ago.

Yep. Which is why photocopiers are an endangered species these days.

I haven't been in an office supply store in twenty years, does Staples still do copy and print work?

Good question. I probably haven't been in one myself in a decade. They probably do, though, since you still have the case of relatively small businesses that need, say, HR manuals printed.

 

[MNblockhead]

Man, I was born in 1957. But I know that finding a photocopier is harder than finding a printer in most places now, so I'm going to have to assume your view on this one is kind of historical at this point. I mean, seriously, I'm 66 but I can't think of the last time a character sheet in a physical book (which, admittedly, I don't buy often any more but its still not unknown) would have done me the least good.

I haven't used a paper character sheet in years. But I still expect the core rule book of any system to give an example of a character sheet. Having a page that explains the character sheet is a reasonable expectation to have in the core rules. E.g., from Warhammer Fantasy 4e:

 

[Thomas Shey]

I haven't used a paper character sheet in years. But I still expect the core rule book of any system to give an example of a character sheet. Having a page that explains the character sheet is a reasonable expectation to have in the core rules. E.g., from Warhammer Fantasy 4e:

View attachment 347489

Oh, a guide to the sheet with instructions how parts are used is golden. I'm just not sure that having an actual blank is useful enough to justify the space taken; even back when I did use physical sheets, I'd rather have had it a separate thing that would be much easier to copy, and now...

(Well, to be really honest, now I'd rather have a fillable PDF).

 

[dragoner]

It is really difficult parsing what needs to be in there, and what should get cut out. I cut my last down to 354 from 468, and it is still a chonker, ideally a book is somewhere around 200-250 pages. I like cut sheets, reference where I can see a bunch of tables, and such that will get used often. I can see why a players book, and GM book as individual books are attractive options.

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

I can see why a players book, and GM book as individual books are attractive options.

As an old schooler I see the appeal myself, but splitting your core over two-three books has some serious economic impact. It costs completists more to get everything than a single-volume game (which can be a real turn off for some), while also making for serious skews in your own sales between "player" and "GM" products, the latter of which will usually sell a fraction of what the former does. Even groups that share books a lot will usually at least a couple of copies of the PHB equivalent between them, while the GM may be the only one with the other book(s) in the core. You wind up having to print very different numbers over time, which can hurt your discounts from the printer - and having one book go OOP for a while for whatever reason makes it much harder to move the rest.

Hard row to hoe, publishing RPGs.

 

[Thomas Shey]

As an old schooler I see the appeal myself, but splitting your core over two-three books has some serious economic impact. It costs completists more to get everything than a single-volume game (which can be a real turn off for some), while also making for serious skews in your own sales between "player" and "GM" products, the latter of which will usually sell a fraction of what the former does. Even groups that share books a lot will usually at least a couple of copies of the PHB equivalent between them, while the GM may be the only one with the other book(s) in the core. You wind up having to print very different numbers over time, which can hurt your discounts from the printer - and having one book go OOP for a while for whatever reason makes it much harder to move the rest.

Hard row to hoe, publishing RPGs.

On the other hand, you can only shave a the main books for a game down so much unless its pretty lightweight, so its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I mean, the main book for the PF2e line (well, the version before the recent update, where I gather they managed to shave about a hundred pages off of it) was around 600 pages. Its not a lightweight game, but that wasn't a bunch of intrinsic bloat, it was just the price of having an all-in-one for a game that's got the typical D&D sphere exception based design, so things like classes, magic items, feats, and spells just take up a lot of space. So its easy for even games where some of that is not an issue to take up 300-400 pages if they're medium to heavy weight in rules.

 

[dragoner]

As an old schooler I see the appeal myself, but splitting your core over two-three books has some serious economic impact. It costs completists more to get everything than a single-volume game (which can be a real turn off for some), while also making for serious skews in your own sales between "player" and "GM" products, the latter of which will usually sell a fraction of what the former does. Even groups that share books a lot will usually at least a couple of copies of the PHB equivalent between them, while the GM may be the only one with the other book(s) in the core. You wind up having to print very different numbers over time, which can hurt your discounts from the printer - and having one book go OOP for a while for whatever reason makes it much harder to move the rest.

Hard row to hoe, publishing RPGs.

I'm doing print on demand through drive thru right now, though I have looked at offset printing, I think anything under a thousand copies is not worth it. Usually I have around 60 sales when I release something, and then it slowly doubles. Maybe I could advertise it more, though I simply don't feel like it. I know a lot of people collect books, I do too; though it is made to be fairly inexpensive. I look at things I should be doing, I know it would help marketing-wise, such as kickstarters, etc.. Though I am kind of lazy, and just like playing the game. It started as me running games and around 2013 I made a campaign in earnest thinking "what if I used real star catalogs? Not Grimdark, and no empires?" Kind of went from there, a big open setting, turned out fairly unique. In play we still get kind of weird, and dark, except that is life, not having to turn the dial up on the game.

Full time publishing would be more like a job, I prefer to avoid that, I think it could work.