How to get better at describing actions, not rolls

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Based on my observation of many games, including some very popular podcasts, I think the approach of the DM describing the character's actions when he or she should (according to the basic conversation of the game) only be narrating the results goes far beyond "offering examples" to the players. It's an approach all its own. I stop short of calling it "steamrolling" because that can imply a bad intent on the part of the DM when I'm sure most DMs who do this aren't thinking about it in that way. They just sort of fell into doing it for various reasons.

Given that I believe players are capable of articulating at least a basic goal and approach from a very young age, I don't think describing their actions for them is doing them any favors. My recommendation is to simply ask them to be more clear about what they want to achieve and how they go about it without reference to game mechanics. The game mechanics in D&D 5e are for the DM to use to resolve uncertainty. Asking to use them in lieu of describing a goal and approach not only forces others to assume the actual things the character is doing in the game world (and you know what they say about assumptions), but it's not even very smart play in my view, given this is a game where the DM decides on success or failure. As I see it, rolling is tantamount to failure. I certainly would not want to ask to make a check because it's asking for a chance to fail. I judge my own success as a player by how often I avoid rolling (among other metrics).

In my experience, when I have explained that to people, it changes their habits almost immediately.
It turns out we don't differ at all. I agree with all of this. This is what you do first, when teaching someone to play the game.

A DM should only speak for the characters to give examples for players who can't or won't (or aren't sure how) to do it themselves.

Or in the rare occasion, like my after-hours group, where we all speak for everyone (players speak for monsters, DM speaks for PCs) when you have tons of trust and everyone is adding to the story. This only works when everyone is good at it, respectful, and understands that their input is only a suggestion and everyone still has the final say over their own character (and monster on the DM side).

This style isn't for most groups, as it is rare to find an entire group who are good at it and enjoy it.

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
So it seems there's a general dislike of the DM saying what the character does. Many of us seem to agree on that point. But it's so, so common from what I can see, including among very popular podcasters. This is what I think is going on:

In the Basic Rules, it tells us the basic conversation of the game (as I call it):

1. The DM describes the environment.
2. The players describe what they want to do.
3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions.

Somewhere in between 2 and 3, the DM may decide a mechanic needs to be used to resolve uncertainty, but otherwise, this is the fundamental interaction between players and DMs in the game. Each has their role to play. Round and round it goes in a loop.

The approach under discussion, I think, is an attempt - conscious or otherwise - at a solution when the player does not adequately perform Step 2. "Adequately" here meaning providing a clear goal and approach. The DM, rather than ask for further clarification, moves to Step 3 and fills in the blanks as it were, making assumptions as to the character's goal and/or approach, whatever was lacking in the description. In some recent podcasts, I was happy to see some players push back against this when the DM assumed things the player didn't like or didn't think was appropriate. But really, the "problem" started when they didn't perform Step 2 adequately.

Now, there may also be an issue in some cases with the DM performing Step 1 such that the player lacks enough context to properly establish a goal and approach. It snowballs from there, resulting in the DM doing even more of the talking than the players do.

Oftentimes, when we see reports on the forums about issues in the game, it can often be traced back to the DM and players not focusing on the basic conversation of the game. So I suggest that may also be what's going on with this approach as well. It's easy to get wrapped up in the "harder" mechanics. I think the focus, however, is best placed on this simple, three-step conversation. Being mindful of it solves a lot of issues downstream.
 

Now, there may also be an issue in some cases with the DM performing Step 1 such that the player lacks enough context to properly establish a goal and approach. It snowballs from there, resulting in the DM doing even more of the talking than the players do.

I've often seen this happen. The DM can get caught up in describing way too many details, but then neglect to mention the giant sleeping dragon in the room, or the actual number of doors in the room.

And I think I may have touched upon this briefly in another thread, but I think some of the adventure modules set a bad example for the descriptions of rooms. I think DM's would do best to focus on the basic most important details of a room first, and only go into finer detail as the players choose to explore it. Further more, I think a lot of adventure modules make the mistake of describing a room from the designer's point of view, and not from the player's point of view. And this is probably because a lot of room descriptions in adventure modules are meant for the DM only, but its easy to see how new DM's would fall into the pitfall of literally reading those text boxes to their players. And when the description is confusing to the players, this makes it harder for the players to describe their approach.

This is also one of the reasons why I'm a huge supporter of the idea that a DM should clearly telegraph traps to his players, as you often mention Iserith. Because the players need to know the most important details of a room to make informed decisions. Getting hit by a trap due to a poorly described room, is entirely the DM's fault. Better to err on the side of caution and clearly give hints to the presence of a trap, so the players know they need to be cautious in their approach.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
The DM can get caught up in describing way too many details, but then neglect to mention the giant sleeping dragon in the room, or the actual number of doors in the room.
This touches on one of the things that I get really frustrated by when I am using published adventure material.

I try to channel that frustration into something positive by making a kind of joke out of it for my group and I to all laugh at, such as with the following type of comments as I run the material I haven't devised on my own or re-formatted and altered while converting:

"Okay, boxed text, cool. Gonna read that out-loud right after I check the last paragraph in the DM-only portion of the room description. Ooh, Monsters! Just like I thought when I saw nothing but shelves, tables, and doors described in the Boxed text."

"Wait, I lied. You don't see any of that. Maybe you imagine it while trying to open the door before you realize it is locked." - though this one is always so infuriating to me that I non-humorously vent about how it seems like no one that actually reviews published adventures thinks it is a bit completely-<expletive deleted>-useless to not put "This room's door is locked" as the absolute first thing after the room name/map label, because even if you do read the whole adventure cover to cover before sitting down to run it, it's not improbable that you forget to check the 2nd or 3rd paragraph of the room description for locked door details since that's counter-intuitive for every method of reading with which I am aware people are taught.

And, of course, there is a decent amount of "<to self> Mhm. Oh. Good to know. <to group> Hmm? Sorry, was just reading a story that your characters have no way of learning through participation in this adventure, and doesn't actually better equip me to run you through the adventure either." when it comes to a certain popular brand of adventure products.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I've often seen this happen. The DM can get caught up in describing way too many details, but then neglect to mention the giant sleeping dragon in the room, or the actual number of doors in the room.
Yep - this happens to all of us at some point. :)

And I think I may have touched upon this briefly in another thread, but I think some of the adventure modules set a bad example for the descriptions of rooms. I think DM's would do best to focus on the basic most important details of a room first, and only go into finer detail as the players choose to explore it. Further more, I think a lot of adventure modules make the mistake of describing a room from the designer's point of view, and not from the player's point of view. And this is probably because a lot of room descriptions in adventure modules are meant for the DM only, but its easy to see how new DM's would fall into the pitfall of literally reading those text boxes to their players. And when the description is confusing to the players, this makes it harder for the players to describe their approach.
Agree.

Boxed descriptions are also often bad for assuming approach from one specific direction even though the room might have three ways in; and rarely if ever bother to include a note such as "Description assumes entry from the north; amend to suit if entry is from another direction".

This is also one of the reasons why I'm a huge supporter of the idea that a DM should clearly telegraph traps to his players, as you often mention Iserith. Because the players need to know the most important details of a room to make informed decisions.
Disagree. If a trap is hard or impossible to notice on a first scan then it should no more be described than any other impossible-to-see part of the room such as the contents of a closed drawer in a desk.

In other words, if there's a desk in the room with three drawers I'm going to tell 'em they see a desk with three drawers regardless of whether any of the drawers are trapped or not.

Getting hit by a trap due to a poorly described room, is entirely the DM's fault.
If the trap was somehow noticeable ahead of time without a specific search (for which there's already mechanics built in to the game), then yes. But if a trap is concealed such that it's only find-able with the specific "find traps" mechanic then the character needs to specifically search for traps (and tell me where they're looking; they're not getting told about the trap in the desk drawer if they're checking the wardrobe) in order to invoke that mechanic, hm?

Better to err on the side of caution and clearly give hints to the presence of a trap, so the players know they need to be cautious in their approach.
Er...shouldn't they always be cautious? :)

Lanefan
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Disagree. If a trap is hard or impossible to notice on a first scan then it should no more be described than any other impossible-to-see part of the room such as the contents of a closed drawer in a desk.

In other words, if there's a desk in the room with three drawers I'm going to tell 'em they see a desk with three drawers regardless of whether any of the drawers are trapped or not.
It seems to me that you are misjudging what [MENTION=6801286]Imaculata[/MENTION] was saying.

It wasn't that a trap should never be hard or impossible to notice. It's that how the room is described shouldn't be without some kind of thing related to the trap for the player to begin to engage with.

To use your desk analogy; A DM should make sure the players know that the desk has drawers if it has drawers, rather than omit that detail until the player goes looking for it, if the expectation is that the players might decide to engage with those drawers in some way.
 

Valmarius

First Post
I think of it like this: The 'find-and-avoid-the-trap' minigame can be initiated by one of two parties.
Either the DM gives a hint that the party should be extra cautious in a particular area and the challenge begins.
Or
The Players must decide when to use extra caution, and in the pursuit of survival will often have caution as their default stance.

The first option still lets you have interesting and dangerous traps while avoiding the pitfalls of the second option. Namely, the players stopping to check every door/chest/desk/ladder/corridor for a trap.

The DM's hint need not be obvious. An old skeleton with an oversized bolt lodged in its ribs. The smell of ozone, or ash in the air. A strange mold growing across the ceiling.
These are all things that can be investigated or acted upon. Which is more interesting in my mind than waiting for the PCs to trigger the trap or start searching unprompted.


(The corollary here, of course, is that an entire area could be known to be dangerous/trapped/well guarded, in which case the PCs should be on their toes. Lich's lairs, Kobold Warrens etc.)
 

pemerton

Legend
I think that it should be pretty natural for most anyone to articulate a goal and an approach to achieving that goal. Kids can do it, so why all of a sudden do some people seem unable?

<snip>

When a player doesn't give me a clear goal and approach, which actually happened once in my Saturday session, I just ask them to restate what they want to achieve and how they go about it. I'm not looking for flowery language or "active roleplay" as the Basic Rules calls it (first person) - just a clear statement so I can adjudicate. Evocative description and interactions are just a bonus that have nothing to do with my adjudication.
When GMing I want my players to engage the fiction of the game in their action declarations. I don't mind if they also connect this to mechanics, although ultimately that is a matter of adjudication by the referee.

The 4e DMG talks about it this way (p 74):

Sometimes, a player tells you, "I want to make a Diplomacy check to convince the duke that helping us is in his best interest." That’s great - the player has told you what she’s doing and what skill she’s using to do it. Other times, a player will say, "I want to make a Diplomacy check." In such a case, prompt the player to give more information about how the character is using that skill. Sometimes, characters [sic] do the opposite: "I want to scare the duke into helping us.” It’s up to you, then, to decide which skill the character is using and call for the appropriate check.​

I think that last example - "I want to scare the duke into helping us" - is uncertain as it stands, and so can't be resolved (is the player planning a Banquo's ghost style scare via a Phantasmal Force spell? or is the character suggesting that s/he has a friend with a pretty big sledgehammer who likes visiting and busting up palaces?), although in the context of an actual episode of play it's meaning might be quite clear.

The passage takes for granted that checks are going to be called for. That's because it's in the context of advice on running skill challenges, which inherently involve checks most of the time. I'll come back to that.

This works quite well for areas that are both tangible and where the DM has any form of grounding and is capable of making reasonable judgement calls. It fails for 'soft' goals or where the DM is incapable of making reasonable judgement calls.
I have some sympathy for this - I have players who aren't that good at giving speeches in character, for instance, and so tend to describe their Diplomacy in slightly awkward 3rd person - but mostly I think this shows that what counts as "specifying an approach" (or, what in Burning Wheel is called "task" as opposed to "intent") is a matter of degree. "I scare the duke into helping us" is a description of an approach, but - as I said - lacks sufficient specificity for adjudication in the typical fantasy RPG.

The suggestions upthread that it would be enough to say "I engage in small talk, ingratiating myself with others while trying to extract data from innuendo, leading questions, and the like" is interesting, because that certainly leaves some details potentially relevant to resolution unspecified. Eg what language are you using? What gossip do you spread? (Some gossip might merit a bonus, other gossip might make the attempt fail automatically!) Who are you focusing on? (Might be relevant if an NPC is trying to do something stealthily.) Etc.

For me, the upshot of this is that there is no canonical way of specifying what counts as adequate engagement with the fiction. It depends on the give and take between players and GM in the particular circumstances of adjudication. Sometimes this might mean the GM does make assumptions - eg if no language is specified, but most of the game's action takes place in Common, the GM will reasonably assume that is the language being used even if the PC also speaks other languages. And sometimes I think this means the GM is entitled to ask more questions - but if doing this will itself give something away, the GM might reasonably make an assumption instead (which could be stated to the player eg instead of "Who do you try to ingratiate yourself with?", which - in the context of the negotiations with the duke - might seed the thought that some other NPC is worthy of attention, I think it is reasonable for the GM to say "I take it that your efforts at ingratiation are aimed at the duke" - thus putting the onus on the player to identify some other NPC as his/her object of attention if s/he wants to).

I've slowly but surely gotten my players used to the idea that they shouldn't ask for rolls, but simply state an approach and goal. The better their approach, the more likely it is that they may not need to make a roll at all.
one other thing I do is I remind players that the d20 is not their friend. It will kill them and everyone they've ever loved given half a chance. So why would you ASK to roll a die? In a game where the DM decides success, failure, or uncertainty - and only in the latter case do we roll - doesn't it make sense to try your best to remove uncertainty so you don't have to roll? That means gathering information, taking precautions, and otherwise trying to achieve automatic success. It's not always possible, of course, due to the fictional circumstances at play, but why on earth would you ask to involve that fickle d20?
I see this as relating to [MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION]'s comment about "reasonable judgement calls". The idea that moments of crisis or climax in the game would be resolved by GM judgement in this way is very reminiscent of classic D&D.

For my own part, I prefer the "Say 'yes' or roll the dice approach" - the GM says 'yes' if nothing is at stake in the action declaration, but when the dramatic crunch is on the GM calls for a roll. In other words the dice are a "uncertainty via pacing" device, not an "uncertainty via ingame causation" device. Some version of this approach, I think, is what is informing the assumption in the 4e rules that when the crunch is on in a skill challenge, checks will be made.
 

SwivSnapshot

First Post
Er...shouldn't they always be cautious? :)

Lanefan

In my first time as GM, I violated the Law of Unintended Consequences by not telegraphing a pit trap in a dungeon corridor and the players spent the following 30 minutes of the session searching every 5 feet of a 50 foot corridor.

To much caution can be a game killer.
 

SwivSnapshot

First Post
[MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION]

I can appreciate your position, but in most of my games, both as a GM and as player, an NPC's reaction to the party is governed by what a PC or party says and does. If a player can't provide a specific statement of intent, a GM can't determine if the skill check is successful or if the party should roll initiative.

I strongly approve of meta gaming and in circumstances such as yours, your fellow players and GM should be encouraged to assist you to give a clear and specific statement of intent.
 

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