How to influence a group's rules usage without alienating them?

[Glade Riven]

I dunno...there may be a legitimate argument to the DDI subscription. Which it, essentually, ownership of all the books (as long as you keep paying). There is an angle for argument here, in that you aren't actually breaking their contract. You just pay out money to WOTC in a different way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

argument

The key word.

Do you really want to start off your relationship in a group by making waves?

 

[Glade Riven]

I didn't say they would agree with it, and I'm using "argument" in the freindly debate sense and not the shouting match sense. If tactful, subtle, and polite about it, it would be possible. There is always a social adjustment when there is a new guy in a group, whether it is a roleplaying group or not.

If he walks in with his character sheet and his rule printoffs from DDI and just hops in and plays his character without trying to reform the other players or being a rules lawyer about, sooner or later his understanding of the errata will crop up, probably without him thinking about it. He may get bonked on the head by the DM because it doesn't quite mesh with what they know. He may get away with it because nobody is paying that much attention to him. He also may end up causing nuclear meltdown and getting kicked out of the group.

Hard to tell without knowing the people involved.

 

[steeldragons]

Sorry to be late to the soiree...or to sound like a broken record...

I can comPLETEly appreciate your not wanting to spend money on books you don't/won't use. Makes complete and perfect sense. I heartily agree.

That said, it just doesn't sound like this is the group for you.

If you have to go in, in opposition to the very basic premise they have set for their group...I really can't see this working out.

Maybe they can make an allowance for you to use someone else's book(s)...and that would be very nice of them...but to go in thinking that they need to change their way of doing things simply is not....fair or justified.

No matter how "brilliant" your way is...it is not theirs. If a cursory conversation about how you want to proceed is met with opposition...it sounds to me like you will not be joining this group. I am sorry about that, as I completely understand the desire to play without the folks to do it with...I think many of us have been there... But it sounds like it might be for the best.

Find some other folks and start your own group (or offer to start a secondary group with these guys under your rules, maybe?).

Good luck and, I hope, happy gaming for all.
--Steel Dragons

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I didn't say they would agree with it, and I'm using "argument" in the freindly debate sense and not the shouting match sense. If tactful, subtle, and polite about it, it would be possible. There is always a social adjustment when there is a new guy in a group, whether it is a roleplaying group or not.

I understand- I'm an attorney and negotiator- but it doesn't change my point: if the first thing you do upon entering an established group is try to change the way they do things or try to get a personal exception for your own preferred methodology, you WILL cause conflict.

It's just a matter of how much.

It may be naught but a ripple; it could be quite divisive.

But that really isn't the first thing I'd want to do walking in the door, and I wouldn't think that highly of someone who did.

 

[Thasmodious]

I disagree with Danny, I don't think an honest inquiry and a politely presented argument would cause conflict. The new group wants you to like them as much as you want them to like you.

The piece of information needed here is - why? Why do they have a rule that you must own a book to use something from it?

Is it because playing through 3e and now 4e they fear rule bloat, players pulling tricks on the group using odd, broken combinations from obscure splatbooks? The counter argument is that the DDI is "official" and current with the kind of errata that addresses broken things. Also, with DDI, the DM can be shown the information for feats and powers and it is accessible in-game at any time.

Is it because they are adamantly opposed to piracy or ganking free information off the internet? Counter is DDI is a paid subscription giving money directly to WotC and is as valid as buying books.

Is it because they only allow a few of the 4e books to be a part of their game? Maybe up through PHB2 or 3 or something like that. In which case, you should be able to use DDI and just watch your sources, making sure not to take anything from an unapproved book.

Is it...can't really think of any other valid reasons other than "because we say so", which is un-arguable and a big red flag in regards to the new group.

 

[Oryan77]

I disagree with Danny, I don't think an honest inquiry and a politely presented argument would cause conflict. The new group wants you to like them as much as you want them to like you.

I'm in the process of recruiting new players into our group. Wanting to like the new player doesn't have much to do with the new player trying to change our group. As the DM, I'll always listen to advice, it helps me improve. But if the new guy starts making suggestions right off the bat, no matter how polite he is about it, he's going to come off as a creepy-weirdo-stereotypically annoying D&D player. He's also going to come off as a problem player and make me wonder if I've made a mistake inviting him to the group.

Just like you said, if I was a new player to an established group, I'd want them to like me. Which means, I'm not going to be the "know-it-all" and start suggesting to them how they could improve their gaming when I barely even know them.

This player entitlement just amazes me. I'd never act like this towards a DM or a new group of players. Even if done with good intentions, it's just socially bad form.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Is it...can't really think of any other valid reasons...

How about streamlining the game in general, reducing table clutter, and as for electronic aids, reducing the number of distractions at the table? (And others.)

While it may be nifty to have all of 4Ed at your fingertips via your laptop, they may have had experience with games who, when their PCs weren't in the spotlight, booted up their favorite electronic time wasters. Nothing says "Fun!" like waiting for the guy on the netbook to finish something up on Farmville...

 

[Umbran]

The new group wants you to like them as much as you want them to like you.

That's not necessarily true. This is not necessarily an even and balanced relationship. If they're an established group, playing and having fun without him, and he's the supplicant, the New Guy, then he may need them a bit more than they need him.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm in the process of recruiting new players into our group. Wanting to like the new player doesn't have much to do with the new player trying to change our group. As the DM, I'll always listen to advice, it helps me improve. But if the new guy starts making suggestions right off the bat, no matter how polite he is about it, he's going to come off as a creepy-weirdo-stereotypically annoying D&D player. He's also going to come off as a problem player and make me wonder if I've made a mistake inviting him to the group.

Just like you said, if I was a new player to an established group, I'd want them to like me. Which means, I'm not going to be the "know-it-all" and start suggesting to them how they could improve their gaming when I barely even know them.

This player entitlement just amazes me. I'd never act like this towards a DM or a new group of players. Even if done with good intentions, it's just socially bad form.

Yup, two times. I dunno Oryan our stars must be in alignment or something...I'm liking/agreeing with everything from you today! lol. (honestly never really noticed if I haven't or didn't before. But today definitely.)

Especially agree with the last paragraph. I wouldn't dream of doing this.

I'd go in, knowing what I know...when I'm told "oh no, we do it this way" I'd say, "OH! Ok. Where do I find that?" and try to work it in...asking questions all the way for things I was unfamiliar with.

It's trite and cliche, but I've found over the years my 5th grade teacher was correct..."the only dumb question is the unasked question." So I'll ask about stuff I don't know/am unfamiliar with. There's no shame in asking questions about something you are unfamiliar with...whether it is considered, now, "errata" or not.

I would not presume to go in and "teach" or "change" a group I had just joined (nor would I want to)...I am also not narcissistic enough (and by narcissistic, I mean feel that my way is the "right/better/good" way) to believe my way is the right/better way...it may be for me. But that's all it is.

After some play, if I wasn't having fun their way...then I know the group may not be for me and, if I am unable to make certain changes with DM approval, I have a choice to make, for myself and my enjoyment of the game/group.

(Apologies for any unintentional offense in the above. I do not mean to insinuate the OP is "narcissistic", simply saying I am not/would not be in the above scenario of joining a new group. "Socially bad form" as Oryan says.)

But, again, whatever happens, good luck and happy gaming...however it goes for you.
--SD