How to influence a group's rules usage without alienating them?

[Thasmodious]

I'm in the process of recruiting new players into our group. Wanting to like the new player doesn't have much to do with the new player trying to change our group. As the DM, I'll always listen to advice, it helps me improve. But if the new guy starts making suggestions right off the bat, no matter how polite he is about it, he's going to come off as a creepy-weirdo-stereotypically annoying D&D player. He's also going to come off as a problem player and make me wonder if I've made a mistake inviting him to the group.

Just like you said, if I was a new player to an established group, I'd want them to like me. Which means, I'm not going to be the "know-it-all" and start suggesting to them how they could improve their gaming when I barely even know them.

This player entitlement just amazes me. I'd never act like this towards a DM or a new group of players. Even if done with good intentions, it's just socially bad form.

The reason I asked for more information about the rules at the table from Kzach is because it's hard to pin down exactly what the situation is. Kzach is asking where the wiggle room is, and I say it depends on the reason for the rule. Do you have to personally own any and all books from which your character draws a single feat or power, can another player at the table own them and you use them, or does everyone need their own copy of PHB3. Is this rule to preserve access for the whole group to the same set of rules and the group has no DDI? In this case, Kzach could offer his DDI access to the group, expanding their library just by joining the group. This may be something they'd like or something they'd abhor.

I'm not talking about going into the game and trying to change the way they do things to better suit oneself (I wouldn't do that either), just asking questions and applying logic to try and find a solution to the OPs problem. Depending on the reason, there may well be wiggle room. I don't see asking questions and seeing if they would be willing to allow you your DDI, since that is what you do have, to be trying to radically alter the entire social contract, anymore than a player bringing a couple of splatbooks to his new group that the group doesn't have and asking them if they'd like to make use of those.

[MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION]

That's not necessarily true. This is not necessarily an even and balanced relationship. If they're an established group, playing and having fun without him, and he's the supplicant, the New Guy, then he may need them a bit more than they need him.

I spoke unclearly. I meant as individuals and not the group as a whole. They want a new player, you're the new player, but you aren't the only possible player in the world, so yeah, you're right. But as individuals, we all want to be liked and accepted. I know as a DM that when I bring in a new player I hope they like the game and the group quite a bit and worry that our particular style of play might not mesh with their expectations. Two gamers with unconnected play experiences aren't going to define terms the same way. What constitutes "heavy RP" or "casual play" or "combat light" are terms with a subjective element that depends on a scale of play that doesn't have a set standard.

Which is why I think it's quite normal for a new player to ask a lot of questions, to get on the same page. That's the polite discussion I was talking about. I grill a new player pretty well to try and determine a bit about his expectations and experiences and I expect them to ask a lot of questions back. I'm a bit suspicious of their seriousness when they don't.

 

[Kzach]

This player entitlement just amazes me. I'd never act like this towards a DM or a new group of players. Even if done with good intentions, it's just socially bad form.

99% of table-top groups I've been involved in have been D&D groups. In 99% of those groups, I've been the DM. My sense of entitlement doesn't come from being a player, it comes from being a DM. And for the record, 99% of those groups I started and ended.

It's only been recently that I've tried to get into groups as a player because I'm tired of being a DM. It's a tough transition to make when you're used to everyone following your lead. Especially when you're right

 

[steeldragons]

99% of table-top groups I've been involved in have been D&D groups. In 99% of those groups, I've been the DM. My sense of entitlement doesn't come from being a player, it comes from being a DM. And for the record, 99% of those groups I started and ended.

It's only been recently that I've tried to get into groups as a player because I'm tired of being a DM. It's a tough transition to make when you're used to everyone following your lead. Especially when you're right

I am so not trying to be argumentative here...truly.

But if you are going into the group to "get away" from DMing...where's the harm in being the player in their group their way? And why would you want to go in and take over DMing for them to show them your way is better?...if you want to get away from DMing for a while?

Just go in, again to their group, be a player (for the change you are seeking) and enjoy the ride...maybe it'll work out...maybe it won't. Never gonna know without trying it.

Like I say above, if you're not liking it after a few plays, then you have a crossroads to...well...cross.

--SD

 

[Umbran]

I spoke unclearly. I meant as individuals and not the group as a whole. They want a new player, you're the new player, but you aren't the only possible player in the world, so yeah, you're right. But as individuals, we all want to be liked and accepted.

Ah, okay. Yes, I largely agree with that. It is at least true for any group I'd really want to join, anyway.

 

[S'mon]

My sense of entitlement doesn't come from being a player, it comes from being a DM.

I think it comes from being Kzach.

You come across very CN(E). If you were a 1e Cleric you'd have to follow Tuoni, from the Legends & Lore version of the Finnish mythos.

 

[Oryan77]

In this case, Kzach could offer his DDI access to the group, expanding their library just by joining the group. This may be something they'd like or something they'd abhor.

I have a feeling that it is less about him "helping" the group out and more about him getting things his way. The DDI subscription is no secret. If the group wanted to use it, they'd be using it. Even if they couldn't use it and Kzach gave them that option, it's a simple matter to work out and not something that needs to be discussed on a forum. If that's all he wanted, then this is all that would have needed to be done (yet I don't think this went down):

DM: "We limit books to only what you own."
Kzach: "I have a DDI subscription that we can all share. How about it?"
DM response #1: "Naw that's ok."
DM response #2: "OK, sure."

Keep in mind, Kzach isn't trying to simply ask them to use the extra rules. There is nothing wrong in asking a new group if they might allow something. The problem is that he wants to talk them into using it. He wants to pester them, poke them, and prod them until he gets what he wants. The point of this thread is to gain ideas on how he can convince them to use it. He isn't just looking for a polite way to offer them additional rules. He wants to tell them to use those additional rules.

To a new group of guys that you don't know and have not even played with, that's extremely annoying.

It's a tough transition to make when you're used to everyone following your lead.

I can completely understand that. I've dealt with the same thing in the past 2 years (being a DM that has to adjust to being a player and not be in control). I'm just surprised that you'd consider pushing your control issues on a new group. A group of existing friends is one thing, but a group of guys you've never played with that have already established their preferences?

It reminds me of the socially awkward nut job I once met that already started arguing with me about the game during our face-to-face "interview". He would ask me about races, classes, or rules that I would or wouldn't use. If it was something I didn't use or allow, he'd actually argue and question me on why I didn't use it. I just met this guy and he found something to argue about with me on every single subject we discussed. I was shocked (and amused). I was also straight forward with him when I told him the next day that I won't be inviting him to play with us. He literally begged me to give him a second chance and said that he's not good with first impressions. That was hard to hear, but I'm not good at dealing with people's BS and there was no way he was playing with us.

But if you are going into the group to "get away" from DMing...where's the harm in being the player in their group their way? And why would you want to go in and take over DMing for them to show them your way is better?...if you want to get away from DMing for a while?

When you put it like that, this whole situation sounds even more ridiculous.

 

[Glade Riven]

I understand- I'm an attorney and negotiator...

Well, taking such statement at face value (in which I have no reason to doubt or disbelieve you), I am sure that you know how it all comes down to how something is phrased.

I am assuming (although possibly in error) that this new group has accepted a new player knowing that he only has DDI. So either 1. they are willing to let it slide a little or B. are going to intentionally force their new player to purchase a book as an initiation thing. It may be as simple as asking permission to use something, or a casual conversation on how they go about x rule. It'll probably come up in play, anyways, just because they've got a new guy with different habits.

To be honest, there is not enough information to really make a call on a forum. There'll be ripples anyways, but if everyone's decently polite about it (a.k.a. not being a jerk), there probably wouldn't be a problem - as long as someone is fine with not getting their way.

 

[C4]

To be honest, there is not enough information to really make a call on a forum.

I agree. Make your move, Kzach, and let us know how it works out.

 

[MortalPlague]

And the Customer is always right.

As a retail sales employee... this is simply not true. Customers are the enemy.

 

[Kzach]

I agree. Make your move, Kzach, and let us know how it works out.

I asked, but she turned me down. And I'd already bought the corsage