How to kill a blue dragon?

[Rhiarion]

I tihink some of us agree to disagree, I was going to post exactly what WOLead posted about the spell.

 

[Stalker0]

"Uh.. parley?"

In that sort of situation, you're simply not going to win. You're fighting on the dragon's terms, in his most favorable environment.
/QUOTE]

Which is of course why all dragons in myth had their homes on the open plains....wait a minute!!?

 

[Stalker0]

I think what this thread shows is that you a dragon's "level" goes way up in the open field, because a party just doesn't have a lot of ranged mojo in most cases.

I would be curious to see a bow ranger vs a dragon in a sniping contest.

 

[Arkhail]

First, he won't be able to use his Lightning Burst from 22 squares. It is a ball of lightning that explodes upon impact. He still needs to be within the 20 square range to hit with it.

Second, his breath weapon has a 10 square range. That's a perfectly reasonable range for a lot of powers.

Third, any DM who reads the MM and sees;

"A blue dragon takes to air immediately if it is not already flying. It spends an action point to use frightful presence, and then follows up with its breath weapon. Until it is forced to land, a blue dragon is content to remain airborne and switch between lightning burst and breath weapon attacks. The dragon relies on its draconic fury to make enemies think twice about engaging it in melee."

then proceeds to hang him in the air at 20 squares up and use nothing but one single power over and over…is an a**hole.

 

[equusasinus]

There is no way that I am allowing a level 1 "instant kill" power for swimming and flying creatures. I am fairly sure that was not the intent of the power designer. You would create aerial terrain (a tornado?) and the "immobilisation" will be the dragon flapping about randomly IN THE SAME SQUARE being buffeted by imaginary crosswinds (or more likely dodging imaginary chasm walls like the Star Wars Return of the Jedi "fly into the death star" corridors scene). It is not going to be hitting the ground hard, but it might lose a square or two of altitude. Otherwise that spell is way broken.

edit: Sleep is daily. Thinking again, it is daily. It might be OK.

Check this out (from Dragon):

Wizard Attack 1
Phantom Chasm
You create the image of a bottomless chasm that opens beneath your foes, convincing them that they are plummeting to their deaths.
Daily

Arcane, Illusion, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Area burst 1 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target is prone and immobilized until the end of its next turn.
Miss: The target is immobilized until the end of your next turn.

Is there a rule that specifically deals with flying creatures that are immobilized? In my opinion they fall like a rock unless they are magically flying. And a dragon flies with his wings.

 

[James McMurray]

It's only dangerous for flying creatures if they're higher than their speed. To be instant kill they'd have to be flying really high. Even flying at 22 (the max reach for Sleep IIRC), they'll only take 11d10 damage. 60 damage is a lot, but it's not even 1/4 of the dragon's hit points.

The dragon in question's speed is 10, so it can fly at a height of ten and land safely even if an effect knocks it prone. Coincidentally, that's the range for the two powers it can snipe with, and a good range for players to reach since even the fighter should have some javelins (or one +1 javelin).

It's never instakill for swimmers, since they don't take falling damage for being knocked prone.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The dragon in question's speed is 10, so it can fly at a height of ten and land safely even if an effect knocks it prone. Coincidentally, that's the range for the two powers it can snipe with, and a good range for players to reach since even the fighter should have some javelins (or one +1 javelin).

Yet another reason why it would be much better if the DM kept the dragon in range, rather than going as high as possible to really mess with the party.

 

[corncob]

I don't see this as harsh at all - any more than if someone in any previous edition of a game said "Hey, can I use this spell that makes imaginary chasms bring down the flying dragon".

"I want to make the chasm appear around the dragon and make things look like it's about to run into a wall."

 

[equusasinus]

Yet another reason why it would be much better if the DM kept the dragon in range, rather than going as high as possible to really mess with the party.

This thread was once about combat options for players vs a dragon.
It has now turned into discussions about what type of game people prefer and there is no longer any answer or point.

In some games (I guess games like Dr Procor's) it's expected the players will win, that the DM will only give beatable monsters, and if somehow something goes wrong the DM will fix it so that the players do win even to the point of having intelligent monsters act like idiots or having cheesy random events save them. This is not a criticism. But, not every group plays D&D like that. In some games the players might realise they have accidentally aggroed a level 6 solo and that they WILL die here if they fight it, so they would be trying to escape. And the monster in that case will be using the full extent of its powers the best way it can (subject to roleplaying its personality).

So much depends on what sort of game you play, so can we please get back to discussion of the combat options and not trying to discuss what is good or bad for the DM/players because that will only apply in a limited number of games.

I have a seen a 3.5 edition dragon go down in 5 minutes (the players rush in and hit it) and I have seen the same fight take three game sessions. (Dragon has spells, dragon has higher INT score than the characters i.e. is cleverer than the party, dragon is paranoid and endlessly patient ... play it like an organised crime boss. You can bet in this type of game, this dragon will not be charging the fighter when it could just teleport away to its _other_ lair and drop the roof of this one on the player's heads). Of course the players would survive as they'd be expecting that, and posted a scout outside to see where the beast sneaked off to, if it sneaked off, or if any reinforcements are coming and the invisible/etherial scout will shout "it's attacking the mountain top, GET OUT FAST"... but it's clearly a very different type of game to "charge and swing". A charge and swing party would be dead without ever even seeing the dragon.

So really, can we get back on topic please Some people *want* their monsters to use all their abilties as best as they can.

 

[MoppyDragon]

snipped

I love you even if you are the classic donkey. You made me remember the good old days and cry, from when we played in uni. Hours long fights against epic dudes who didn't hold back and would kill you - all of you - if you made just one mistake, because the DM ran them like a PC. There was no safety net. Realistic and we loved it, but the kids these days, they just want to win :-(