How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[tomBitonti]

Still some questions

Hi,

Trying to hear both sides on this, and I still have some questions.

Assume that the bowman has a deadly poisoned arrow to shoot.

Working from an example (hopefully cinematic):

Actor 1: The king, walking in procession through a hall lined with his subjects.
Actors 2 and 3: A pair of bodyguards on either side of the king.
Actor 4: A sniper (bowman) on a balcony, with his bow notched and ready to shoot the king.
Actor 5: A patrollman who has snuck up behind the sniper and who is preparing to attack him.
Actor 6: A random subject, who is racing through the crowd to warn the king, but who has been silenced by an ally of the sniper.

There are a couple of things that are about to happen:

The random subject will cause a disruption in the crowd as he races towards the king;
The guardmen will react to the random subject, probably with alarm.
The bowman will attempt to shoot the king.
The patrolman will attack the bowman.

Questions:

When is initiative rolled.
Is there a surprise round? Who gets to act during that round.
What are the states of the actors relative to each other?
(Aware of or not, flat-footed, retains dexterity or not?)

My take is that initiative is rolled as soon as the random subject causes the disruption.

At that point, the actors roll spot checks to become aware of the subject.

The bowman has already rolled (and failed) a spot check against the patrolman, and
doesn't get another one.

The bodyguards have previously failed a spot check against the bowman, but they get
a new one, or can make an intelligence check to make a new one (perhaps this is a diversion!)

Let's say that both guardsmen and the bowman spot the disturbance, but the patrolman does not (he is in a back hallway and can't clearly see or hear the disturbance, and
besides, he is focussed on the bowman.) Also, let's say that the king does not spot
the disturbance (maybe he does, but doesn't internalize the information sufficiently
to react to it).

What happens from there?

Thx

T Bitonti

 

[KarinsDad]

To finish my post above: I would consider a spot check vs bluff check for the surprise round. You cannot "initiate" combat unnoticed even if it's a ready action. Reading an action is an active mode in which to prepare a coordinated action. It would imply placing your hand on the hilt of your sword, taking a fighting stance (leaving flat-footedness) it is noticable (spot check vs bluff check). If you lose init and lose the spot vs bluff, the enemy see through your mask and you're screwed. That's own it works per RAW. Now if you go unoitced in the surpise round and you don't do anything in it, fine. Everyone is unaware there's a fight going on but you... until it's been long enough that you are tired being tense; ready to spring and go out of combat mode going back to FF. I would also rule that each prepared round occurs a penality to your bluff check, provoking the attack.

Assuming to expect having a chance to go out of the encounter without a fight, I would strongly advise against such tactics (cirumstance penality to dipomacy/bluff).

You cannot stay on the edge too long before you get noticed.

What if you are invisible? Who would notice you then???


Your entire post here is a bunch of "how can we screw the player?" comments if you DID as DM allow this to occur.

 

[Bastoche]

If you are invisible, you *almost* automatically surprise everyone since the spot check will fail. There could be a listen vs move silently.

My post is an application of my quoted SRD rules in your scenario. The players are screwed in your scenario due to bad luck i.e. loss of initiative, not because of some clever strategy, and/or due to a poor choice of class/class ability and /or feat. Your scenario is not doom to fail for the PC who lost initiative. It's doom to fail if your PC both lose the initiative, doesn't not prepare a stategy to beat sneak attack if they lose init and if they choose to forget the feats that would allow them to protect their wizard. In other words, the PCs are not "optimized" for such series of circumstances. I suspect in some other circumstances, they are better prepare due to class choice and/or feat choice.

In other words, the situation is NOT problematic, you can legally overcome flat-footedness with uncanny dodge (keep dex) and combat reflexes (keep AoO). If it was absolutly and totally impossible to overcome such situation, you could have a point vs FF. But it is possible. There's feats and class abilities for that. Improve initiative would help too.

My point is: look at the SRD quote I did. It says:

1) everyone is flat-footed

2) make the appropriate check to see if there's a surprise round. If there's a surprise round, everyone who is not surprise, roll initiative and act in order of initiative. At your turn, you stop being flat footed. In you scenarios, everyone is assumed to be aware of each other. Therefore, no surprises.

3) roll initiative if you were surprised in surpise round.

4) at your turn of initiative choose your action. Then and only then can you ready an action.

5) goto 5 until fight ends.

That is the rules as written. Basically, what you are asking for is the following:

"Suppose my players don't want to pick the feats necessary to survive such and such encounters, how can I bend the rules (legally overcome) to allow them to do it?"

It's not as if that situation was hopeless. It's hopeless for someone without the skill to lose initative vs a rogue. The rules are how they are. If you want to change them, fine, but as per SRD, RAW, whatever you call it, a rogue that wins initiative gets a sneak attack, anyone losing init is flat-footed ed of story.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hi,

Trying to hear both sides on this, and I still have some questions.

Assume that the bowman has a deadly poisoned arrow to shoot.

Working from an example (hopefully cinematic):

Actor 1: The king, walking in procession through a hall lined with his subjects.
Actors 2 and 3: A pair of bodyguards on either side of the king.
Actor 4: A sniper (bowman) on a balcony, with his bow notched and ready to shoot the king.
Actor 5: A patrollman who has snuck up behind the sniper and who is preparing to attack him.
Actor 6: A random subject, who is racing through the crowd to warn the king, but who has been silenced by an ally of the sniper.

There are a couple of things that are about to happen:

The random subject will cause a disruption in the crowd as he races towards the king;
The guardmen will react to the random subject, probably with alarm.
The bowman will attempt to shoot the king.
The patrolman will attack the bowman.

Questions:

When is initiative rolled.
Is there a surprise round? Who gets to act during that round.
What are the states of the actors relative to each other?
(Aware of or not, flat-footed, retains dexterity or not?)

My take is that initiative is rolled as soon as the random subject causes the disruption.

At that point, the actors roll spot checks to become aware of the subject.

The bowman has already rolled (and failed) a spot check against the patrolman, and
doesn't get another one.

The bodyguards have previously failed a spot check against the bowman, but they get
a new one, or can make an intelligence check to make a new one (perhaps this is a diversion!)

Let's say that both guardsmen and the bowman spot the disturbance, but the patrolman does not (he is in a back hallway and can't clearly see or hear the disturbance, and
besides, he is focussed on the bowman.) Also, let's say that the king does not spot
the disturbance (maybe he does, but doesn't internalize the information sufficiently
to react to it).

What happens from there?

First, we should look at this with regard to "normal initiative rules" (i.e. without allowing readying actions to trigger the start of combat).

The DM rules that the disturbance results in a surprise round and initiative rolls for those who are not surprised. This normally means that the guardsmen, the bowman, and the patrolman get to roll Spot or Listen rolls. However, the patrolman cannot see the disturbance, he might only hear the crowd's reaction to the disturbance. So, his Listen DC might be higher. But, he was planning on attacking the bowman as quickly as possible anyway, so I would automatically allow him to roll in the surprise round if he is close enough to the Bowman to act.

The guardsmen will at first be attracted to the disturbance, so their Spot DCs might be higher as well.

The bowman probably has the best chance to take advantage of the disturbance since he was waiting for an opportune shot anyway. Since he was effectively planning on initiating combat anyway, I would not normally require him to make a Spot or Listen check, only an initiative roll in the surprise round.

So, a minimum of two initiative rolls in the surprise round, one for the bowman and one for the patrolman and possibly one or two for some very alert guardsmen or even the King.


This assumes that the timing is so close that the Patrolman does not simply get to act in the surprise round because the Bowman is waiting until the King gets even closer (maybe the King is 200 feet away when the Patrolman spots the Bowman).


How would this change if you allowed combat to start before this and the bowman got to hold a ready action for multiple rounds?

Well, it depends on what he is readying for. If he is readying for the King to reach a given location for a "perfect shot" and the king has not yet gotten there, then he has to wait until his next initiative to change his readied action. If the King does not get to the location until after the Patrolman's initiative, then the Patrolman goes before the Bowman can fire and can try to disrupt it. If the King gets there first, then the Bowman shoots before the Patrolman gets there. The guardmen could still make Spot rolls because of the disturbance and could still act before the Bowman if their initiatives have not yet come up.

So, very little difference between the two scenarios.


But the problem with this scenario is that it is not one in which the Bowman would want to do a ready to initiate combat. It is one in which he would want fire his bow to initiate combat. So, it is not a very good example for comparison.

 

[KarinsDad]

My point is: look at the SRD quote I did. It says:

1) everyone is flat-footed

2) make the appropriate check to see if there's a surprise round. If there's a surprise round, everyone who is not surprise, roll initiative and act in order of initiative. At your turn, you stop being flat footed. In you scenarios, everyone is assumed to be aware of each other. Therefore, no surprises.

3) roll initiative if you were surprised in surpise round.

4) at your turn of initiative choose your action. Then and only then can you ready an action.

5) goto 5 until fight ends.

That is the rules as written.

Nothing I have said breaks those rules.

The only thing I have done is have other combatants not aware that they are in combat. This is possible according to the rules on Unaware Combatants and characters entering late in a combat.

So far, your only point has been "this is not the intention of the rules, so you cannot do it". That's fine for your game, but I am discussing what is possible by RAW, not what is implied or intended by RAW.

 

[ThirdWizard]

What happens from there?

Thx

T Bitonti

Initiative would probably not begin until either the sniper shot or the patrolman charged the sniper. I would give both of them a surprise round. The patrolman would see the sniper pulling his arrow, and he would have the chance to stop the sniper if he beat his initiative and charged forward, possibly bull-rushing him off the building. If the sniper goes first, then he could shoot at the king. The surprise round over, now the people on the ground can act and will not be flat footed as soon as they act. The struggle continues on the rooftop and the guards on the ground get the king to safety (assuming he isn't dead) and send reinforcements up to get the sniper.

 

[Bastoche]

Nothing I have said breaks those rules.

I think yes. You short-circuit the surprise mechanics. I agree that this part is mostly "up to the DM", but IMO, everyone needs to at least have a chance to spot/listen/sense motive the "unawared readied action". Furthermore, and it's just a matter of semantics, my point is that you implied that everyone was "aware" of each other, bypassing the surprise round. In other words, you break to rules by being self-inconsistant on the "awareness" issue.

The only thing I have done is have other combatants not aware that they are in combat. This is possible according to the rules on Unaware Combatants and characters entering late in a combat.

This I agree. What I do not agree with is bypassing any sort of mechanics allowing anyone to notice the readied action (i.e. surprise round check) especially since everyone is on equal footing, namingly aware of each other and expecting a fight.

So in the ends, your suggestion is to replace the criticality of winning the initiative with the criticality of being unsurprised in the surprise round. In other words, those who won't be flat footed are those who aren't surprised in the surprise round. 100% fine with me. And you do gain something by doing it that way: the firsts round is a partial round. It may very well disallow the rogue to move and sneak in the first round.

However, he could certainly shot instead of attack in melee, still getting his sneak attack (remember in that scenario, he still wins the initiative). If the wizard is surprised, the rogue will still be able to walk up to him (surprise round) the rogue is first so everyone else is FF. Then the guy who initiated the fight by choosing to ready an action at his turn ready an action and those surprised remain FF. Round 2, rogue full attacks the wizard with sneak attacks (worst result than in a no surprise round scenario). This is IF the rogue succeed the surprise check. If not, the only one to act is the guy who ready an action and then we go to first full round. At which point the rogue moves and sneak attacks the wizard. It does NOT trigger the readied action because it was in the previous round and it was lost because it was not triggered. If the "readier" has a drawn weapon or improved unarmed strike, he can strike the running rogue before he reach the wizard who still gets sneak attacked. Anyone with a drawn weapon (or IUS) and combat reflexes get AoOs.

If the "readier" is the wizard in question, then the rogue attack without sneak attack (the wizard is not FF). Is the wizard somehow has uncanny dodge, he cannot suffer a sneak attack in any scenario.

Is it satisfactory?

 

[IcyCool]

This quote does not prohibit a character from starting combat by readying an action. It prohibits him from readying an action outside of combat.

Just like swinging your sword does not prohibit a character from starting a combat. You cannot swing your sword (at an opponent) out of combat either.

Ok, either you're just trying to be arguementative, or I'm not being clear enough. I'll assume the latter and try to explain this to you again.

#1. Characters do not start combat, the DM decides when combat is initiated. This may bear repeating, as you have either missed it or ignored it each time it has been mentioned.

#2. A character cannot use the ready action outside of combat.

Those two are paraphrased by me from the DMG, pg. 21-26. I posted the relevant actual quotes in my previous post.

Now, if you are the DM, and your player says he wants to train his crossbow on the door so that he can shoot anything coming out, what are your options?

#1. He trains his crossbow on the door, but you are not in combat rounds yet, so he has to roll initiative. However, thanks to his planning, he will get to act in the surprise round if there is one.

#2. You as the DM decide to enter combat rounds, have everyone roll initiative, and when the player's initiative comes up he declares his readied action. You then continue to play this out until you as the DM decide that combat is over.

#3. You don't have to deal with the "can't use the ready action outside of combat" because you play your entire game in combat rounds. (This is unlikely, but is included for a tongue-in-cheek extreme example).

This is how you can play it by the RAW. Is that more clear? I ask that you please respond to this post, as I would like to know that you read it.

 

[Garet Jax]

I've only read pg1 of this thread, so apologize if this was already brought up on pg2-5.

Isn't there an optional rule in DMG that would only give combatants a partial action in a surprise round? So KD, perhaps you could rule this be the case in round 1 as well. IOW, combatants are only allowed to take EITHER a standard or move action in surprise round or round 1 until everyone is no longer flatfooted. This way, in the surprise round (or rd1) the assassin would only be able to quickly fire an arrow at the king OR move closer to the target but NOT BOTH. Everyone else then takes their partial actions in initiative order. In round 2 everyone can then take normal actions. Would this work?

 

[Saeviomagy]

That's called metagaming.

I won't bother to explain it to you since I know you already know the concept, but suffice to say that there are no "rolling inits" from the point of view of characters.

Third, the very act of readying an action itself might initiate "real combat" immediately. For example, if I ready to fire my crossbow at the head of the Thieves Guild, every thief in the guild will see me lift up my crossbow and point it at hiim.

And one of them might "get" you before you shoot him? Like if they beat you on initiative for instance...

The ready action has to be more subtle or the opponents will notice. And, even then the DM might require a Spot roll. This might be more useful when one side spots the other but are not seen in return, and has multiple rounds to act first.

Ahh, you mean one side gets a surprise round, right?

Fifth, this cannot be used to ready an action all day long. The DM has to decide how long it is reasonable to ready an action. For example, as soon as they get into the Thieves guild, one PC stands in the corner and has a knife held behind his cloak ready to throw it (or, he might have gone into the guildhouse invisible or something). If none of the thieves notice, the DM might rule that this is like concentration and it is reasonable that the PC can be ready to throw for the entire 15 minute conversation. Another DM might rule that he can do it for 10 rounds, but that is why we have DMs.

Or, you know, just use the rules as written. The guy is ready for trouble, and therefore will be able to respond to any threat he is aware of... rolling iniative just like normal and acting in the surprise round. Conversely, his opponents may not be aware of the threat he poses should he decide to shoot first...

So, I suspect that this will not be used too often. However, it does avoid the problem of flot-footed in round one for some unique circumstances. It does not solve it completely. And, it does it fairly for both sides.

No, it doesn't. It's entirely dependant on GM fiat...