How to punish a metagamer?

[prosfilaes]

He (or she) came to us with a problem player and asked how to take care of him. I'm not about to delve into the OP's psychological state to analyze whether or not he or she is really the one who is at fault - I'm just going to help the OP.

But you didn't answer the question, either. The question was not should I throw this player out, but rather how should I punish him without throwing him out.

And people frequently ask the wrong question. We're too close to our own issues to see what the real problem is frequently, especially if we're part of the problem. The nice thing about asking humans is that sometimes they can tell you you need to look at the picture a different way, perhaps looking at your own responsibility, instead of just answering the question asked.

 

[tylermalan]

But you didn't answer the question, either. The question was not should I throw this player out, but rather how should I punish him without throwing him out.

Oh, but I did answer the question, further lending credence to my belief (hitherto unstated) that most people aren't reading this thread, and are merely reacting to the in-game stuff that happened as though THAT'S what this is all about. It's not.

The question was, from the OP:

Any suggestions?

And my answer, on page 2, was the following:

In-game "punishment" is silly.

This is a social issue that is, by-and-large, totally separate from the game that you're playing. It should be dealt with as such - by this I mean: would you go to the movies with someone that annoys you? Maybe once, before you know how annoying they are, but would you keep doing it?

If the person is doing something that you don't like, you talk to them about it, like real people. If the person continues to do it, you stop wasting your time trying to have fun with someone who obviously doesn't care. It's very simple - don't make this about the game; this is about personality conflicts between two real people (or between one person and many others).

It is also clear (from the thread starter's other posts) that he wants to boot the problem player (who he obviously thinks is the fighter) but feels as though he can't.

Remember, I'm not claiming that no one is answering the question. In fact, I'm rather confident that most people are giving suggestions. At the same time, I'm not going to tell the OP that he asked the wrong question - in fact, I think that's a little presumptuous.

It's just that I'm totally blown away by how many people consider this to be an in-game issue as opposed to a social issue, as if everything would suddenly be hunky-dory if the OP and the rest of his group came to the realization that an imaginary charm spell really would alert the fighter... or whatever. Come on, people. I know that this board's purpose is to discuss the game, but I would say that I answered the social question (which is what this is) far more succinctly than anyone who provided a dissertation on the nuances of Charm Person.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I really kinda feel like you just read my post up to the third comma... and nothing after. As I mentioned earlier in this very post, this has nothing to do with the game. When I say
"in this case," I'm not referring to the imaginary case of fighter vs. wizard concerning magic items in-game. I'm referring to player vs. player out-of-game, where the OP and the mage are clearly friends, the fighter is a jerk, and the group doesn't like him. Don't play with people that you don't like or can't get along with.

In that case then inviting the player over to start with was the mistake. If everyone else was already together and knew this guy, and still chose to invite him then it falls on them to either accept how he is going to act or put down some ground rules. If you just had to bring him in then the solution is to write up some ground rules, lie to the fighter and say you all wrote this and agreed to it from the beginning so he doesnt feel targetted, and list behavior that is not acceptable at your table.

Out of curiosity, does everyone else play as selfless heroes with no greed what so ever? Are they all willing to give up whatever item someone else in the party might want? Would the mage have charmed another player to get what he wanted or was this done only because the "fighter is a jerk and not giving me what I want". I ask because the way the party is acting here does not sound any better than the fighter.

 

[prosfilaes]

At the same time, I'm not going to tell the OP that he asked the wrong question - in fact, I think that's a little presumptuous.

But you did; the question he asked was how do I punish a metagamer, not should I get rid of this player.

There are a lot of questions that I think it mandatory to question the question. The appropriate response to "How do I cook California condor?" is not "Like turkey". If someone asks how to open the case on a CRT, I'd feel very remiss not to point out that odds you can fix anything inside are low compared to the odds you kill yourself.

as if everything would suddenly be hunky-dory if the OP and the rest of his group came to the realization that an imaginary charm spell really would alert the fighter...

No, but if the OP acknowledges that, they'll have to stop hiding behind the argument that they're punishing a metagamer, and look at the real problem.

I know that this board's purpose is to discuss the game, but I would say that I answered the social question (which is what this is) far more succinctly than anyone who provided a dissertation on the nuances of Charm Person.

But as you say, this board's purpose is to discuss the game, not to answer the OP's question as succinctly as possible.

 

[tylermalan]

But you did; the question he asked was how do I punish a metagamer, not should I get rid of this player.

You really think that "Kick him out." is not an appropriate response to the question, "Any suggestions for how to punish a metagamer?"

No, but if the OP acknowledges that, they'll have to stop hiding behind the argument that they're punishing a metagamer, and look at the real problem.

And what is the real problem? (I'll give you two hints - it's a social problem, and I've already told you, and the OP, the answer in previous posts.)

But as you say, this board's purpose is to discuss the game, not to answer the OP's question as succinctly as possible.

Last I checked, D&D is a social game. I mean, I guess if you want to hijack the OP's thread to discuss Meteor Swarm (or something else that has nothing to do with the real problem)... go right ahead, buddy.

 

[tylermalan]

In that case then inviting the player over to start with was the mistake. If everyone else was already together and knew this guy, and still chose to invite him then it falls on them to either accept how he is going to act or put down some ground rules.

I agree that this would have been appropriate, adult behavior, but the mistake was already made... and they certainly don't have to accept how he behaves if they don't like it. Who hangs out with people they don't like unless they have to? Free time is precious, and it is silly to waste it spending time with people whose company you don't enjoy.

 

[prosfilaes]

You really think that "Kick him out." is not an appropriate response to the question, "Any suggestions for how to punish a metagamer?"

That wasn't the full question, which specified that that kicking him out was not an option. Frankly, I find kicking a metagamer out to be completely disproportionate and far from the first solution to be tried. If that were the real issue here, then, no, it would not be an appropriate response.

And what is the real problem?

Certainly part of it is that the OP doesn't know what the real problem is.

Last I checked, D&D is a social game. I mean, I guess if you want to hijack the OP's thread to discuss Meteor Swarm (or something else that has nothing to do with the real problem)... go right ahead, buddy.

If you claim that something is metagaming in a thread, it makes the question of whether that's metagaming fair game.

 

[Osagasu]

Let's assume for the moment that it is metagaming. It's been made obvious that this is a player, not the DM, asking the question, so I have to ask (and I'm sorry if this has been answered, it's very possible I missed a few posts): What is the DM doing to punish the player? It's their job first and foremost. More importantly, where was the DM when the metagaming took place, when the DM was supposed to rule on any complaints quickly so play could continue?

 

[tylermalan]

You're still missing the point, prosfilaes, and are arguing points that just don't matter.

Let's just cut the bull - for some reason, you don't want to admit that this is a purely social problem. Fine. Maybe you just want to argue, I don't know.

The point is that this has nothing to do with metagaming. They don't want to kick him out purely because he's a metagamer. And in fact, I agree with you - in my first post in this thread, I said that punishing a metagamer is silly. My underlying point was that if you really want to punish someone, not only does that mean you probably just don't like them, but also that the punishment doled out won't make you enjoy your time with this person any more.

I understand that the question of metagaming is fair game, and that's why I said "I understand the purpose of this board is to discuss the game..." in reference to the discussions on Charm Person. But I view this as the true hijack - I don't have a problem with you or anyone else who discussed Charm Person. I was merely expressing my disdain at how many people don't see that this is pointless discourse because this problem, this group, this player, and the OP's ultimate question has nothing to do with the game that they're all playing. They could be playing any other game, or doing any other activity.

They aren't considering punishing this guy because he's a metagamer. His metagamer tendencies are an expression of personality traits that, for whatever reason, don't jive with the rest of the OP's group. That's all it is. These personality traits, being inherent, would express themselves in other ways if they were playing a different game. In turn, they want to give him the boot because they don't get along - and they should. Not only would the group likely be happier without this guy, but this guy would probably be happier with another group.

How silly to say that the OP doesn't know what the real problem is - of course he knows what the problem is. Do you need someone to tell you when you don't like another person? I simply don't think that their fun game of D&D amongst friends should turn into either a therapy session for the friends (in which they all come to realize that they are truly the problem) or a rehabilitation clinic for the outsider (during which he realizes the error of his ways and makes a 180 in his personality). It won't happen, and the true answer is far more simple.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

How silly to say that the OP doesn't know what the real problem is - of course he knows what the problem is. Do you need someone to tell you when you don't like another person? I simply don't think that their fun game of D&D amongst friends should turn into either a therapy session for the friends (in which they all come to realize that they are truly the problem) or a rehabilitation clinic for the outsider (during which he realizes the error of his ways and makes a 180 in his personality). It won't happen, and the true answer is far more simple.

But he doesn't see the problem as you said yourself... he asked about metagaming, but you say he just don't likes the player. Best solution would be trying to talk with each other and that there colliding game styles / personalities will diminish the fun for both of them...