D&D 5E How to run a criminal organization in a City with 8th level spells?

[AkaKageWarrior]

Any city only has so many resources to go around and in every city throughout history law enforcement has never gotten all it really needs.

This.

 

[Leatherhead]

Would you believe that most spells that would foil criminal activities are actually level 5 and below? Just a side effect of an edition that doesn't have lots of bloat yet.
There are the generic activities of bribing the local guards, lining your room with lead, and simply not robbing the wizards or clergy because they generally have more important things to worry about.
Aside from that, what kinds of criminal activity are we talking about here?

 

[Stalker0]

Are there any good ways to increase a spell's resistance to remove curse or dispel magic?

I would love to have the organization infiltrate some of the police force but I would assume such a place would do routine screenings to ensure their people don't have magical compulsions or curses. A simple remove curse can even take out a full 9th level geas, so wanted to see if there were ways to resist that.

 

[Dausuul]

Are there any good ways to increase a spell's resistance to remove curse or dispel magic?

I would love to have the organization infiltrate some of the police force but I would assume such a place would do routine screenings to ensure their people don't have magical compulsions or curses. A simple remove curse can even take out a full 9th level geas, so wanted to see if there were ways to resist that.

The gold standard of mind control is dominate person* cast by a 14th-level enchanter. While the modify memory spell can be undone by remove curse, the enchanter's Alter Memories ability cannot be dispelled or fixed; those memories are just gone. So you can wipe the memory of you casting the spell, wipe the memory of dastardly deeds being carried out, and no amount of de-magicking later can get that information back. Ideally, you'd do this at night when the subject is asleep, so they aren't suspicious of the blanks in their memory.

However, this requires a 14th-level enchanter to actively intervene each time you need your catspaw to do something. 14th-level enchanters are not common, even in a high-magic setting. So, for situations that don't rise to the level of requiring the mindtwister's attention, I would rely on the following strategies:

• Cast charm person, suggestion, or whatever. Get what you need from the target. Then kill or kidnap them. Obviously, this is not an effective way of infiltrating over the long term, but when you just want some information, need some records destroyed, a witness silenced, etc., it'll get the job done.
• If what you need is information, extract it via divination rather than mind control. Bring the conversation around to the subject you want information on, then use detect thoughts while it's in the front of the target's mind. This may require some dispelling of your own if the target is under anti-divination spells.
• The spells nice family you got there and you deserve a raise are highly effective means of influencing police forces, used by real-world crime syndicates for centuries. Don't underestimate the power of good old-fashioned corruption.

Keep in mind also that remove curse, nondetection, and dispel magic are themselves spells that require a 5th-level caster; even a city with a powerful supply of magic is not going to have the resources to cast them daily on every beat cop and mid-level bureaucrat. Detect magic is a 1st-level ritual and can be used to scan everyone daily, but Nystul's magic aura can shut that right down. That is the weakness of the defensive approach: While you can focus your defensive magic to "harden" a single target, there's no way you can harden everything and everybody. There will always be weak points.

[size=-2]*Edited. Originally I had suggestion here, but then realized Alter Memories only works on spells that impose the charmed condition.[/size]

 

[Caliburn101]

The authorities are in on it and derail the investigators subtly, or cast magic on their behalf and lie about the results, or report on the parties activities and warn the criminals, or put THEM under investigation on trumped up charges.

So many ways to derail the investigators.

 

[Dausuul]

You are right, there are definitely problems verbally dodging in a zone of truth if the interrogators are "not so nice".

On the other hand:
torture is (in most opinions) considered evil.
Evil is prone to corruption.

Thus, if the city have evil guys among them for the dirty work, I'd say chances are not too bad at least some of them can somehow be bought.

Whether the city relies on torture or not, there are without a doubt people who can be bought. That's a given.

But even without torture, interrogators don't have to stand for evasions. They can lock you up till you talk. For that matter, I could envision a legal system under which a trial proceeds thusly:

Cleric. I have cast zone of truth, Your Honor.
Magistrate. You have been accused of the murder of John Smith. Please say "I did not murder John Smith." Speak those words and only those words.
Prisoner. I had nothing to do with the events of...
Magistrate. Speak the words "I did not murder John Smith." If you do not say those words, and only those words, you will be considered guilty as charged.
Prisoner. I did not murder John Smith in the way that...
Magistrate. For the last time: Speak the words "I did not murder John Smith," and nothing else. If you say anything other than those exact words, I will find you guilty.
Prisoner. I told you that I did not murder John Smith.
Magistrate. You have three times refused to assert your innocence in the words required of you. I find you guilty as charged and sentence you to death. May Pelor have mercy on your soul.

 

[Krachek]

If you push the knowledge and wards against magic, you will arrive to a situation where all options will be locked up.
Most divination, investigation tricks will be counter.
Players will get mad.
In real world you can come on with unsuspected tactics, but in DnD all the spells are written!
Play smart but not too much.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

Cleric. I have cast zone of truth, Your Honor.
Magistrate. You have been accused of the murder of John Smith. Please say "I did not murder John Smith." Speak those words and only those words.

The flip side of that is that I can say those words and only those words if:
I paid or ordered someone else to murder John Smith. I didn't do it myself, so I can truthfully say I didn't do it.
I told someone violent than John Smith insulted them, which led to a duel where he died.
I don't consider killing him murder, I consider it an accident or self defense or otherwise justified.
I was under the effects of a compulsion spell, which means it wasn't 'murder' as I had no intent of my own.
I used something to wipe the memory of killing him, for example I did the deed but had a friendly illusionist wipe the memory afterwards.

On the flip side, asking a question like "Did you kill John Smith" could require me to answer yes if:
He attacked me and I defended myself against the attack.
He was injured by someone else and I tried to save him, but failed.
We were long-time partners, I drifted away from him, then he got sick or killed himself later, and I blame myself for it.
I was under the effects of a mind affecting spell and compelled to do it.

Teaching your mooks and co-conspirators some basic legal theory and precise vocabulary could really throw a wrench into that kind of questioning. And this isn't just made up for the game, there have been real life cases where someone 'confessed' to a murder but the confession was thrown out because they were just blaming themselves for not doing enough for a sick relative.

 

[smbakeresq]

What would be a good idea for the Criminal Mastermind is mundane disguises as a very common city denziens, for example when ever they commit crimes they were uniforms of the Sewer crews.

This might help also, making of mind clones like in Age of Worms. A mind flayers dominated doppleganger minions kidnap people and then create a Mind Clone through a device that extracts the memories of the person and stores them in a gem. The memories can then be accessed, or placed in a actual mindless body that is of course friendly to the mindflayer. The people they did this too are all regular people, like a tax collector, who are generally above suspicion. The people then perform their normal duties, shaving a little off for the mastermind, or just making a "zoning" decision in the masterminds favor.

Every mastermind in general wants illegal enterprises to provide investment capital for legitimate businesses.

Another thing also, things we consider "crimes" might not be in a fantasy world. Certainly this would include gambling and prostitution, gambling establishments of course would have methods to make sure they are not getting cheated, a house wizard to watch the games is certainly appropriate.

There used to be a fortune to be made in selling monster parts as magic ingredients, you could polymorph a near dead person into something else and then kill it, it would keep its polymorphed form to be chopped up for sale. I don't think that would work with todays polymorph. However a specialized spell could be had I suppose.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I'm not 100% certain if this is still true in 5e, but I've found that a headless corpse cannot speak under a speak with dead, and, for that matter, it complicates a raise dead, too. Cities with a sewer system often have a few skulls found on the beach.