D&D 5E How to tear a pc's arm off?

[Sunseeker]

Actually the rationale comes from the MM. If gaining class levels like PCs was normal, every vampire would be a wizard and every ancient dragon would be a zillionth level wizard. Do you realize how far you could level up in a thousand years of solo adventuring backed by a dragon's special abilities? Even a bog-standard troll could easily become an 11th level fighter, if kill XP is all it takes.

It's cool if you want to let monsters level up as a common thing, but don't say there's no non-metagame rationale for disallowing it. Clearly there is, and it's a basic necessity if you want a humanoid-dominated world.

Ancient creatures being insanely powerful and often multi-classes was common practice in editions past. But they are rare for a variety of much more logical reasons, such as they're obsessed with hoarding knowledge. They're paranoid their fellows will come to steal their power, so they kill them first. It's not a far-fetched idea in fantasy that the prime reason that zillion-year-old creatures are rare is because they tend to go to war with each other periodically. That and the knowledge to become a lich is fairly hard to gather and even harder to put into practice.

I DO realize how far you could level up with thousands of years of soloing the world, but there are much more reasonable reasons for why there aren't hundreds of dragon-god-lords or at least why they're not here. The thing is: monsters adventuring they face the same problems as players, the world fights back. Eventually another dragon shows up, or enough kobols gang up on the thing or the humanoids of the world band together or whatever. Those are all great reasons for why incredibly powerful creatures aren't omni-present.

It's not rationalization. It's assuming that not every creature has the kind of flexible intelligence to go beyond its natural limits as in-game humanoids do. If you want monsters to level and gain class abilities, that's fine, but then you have to accept the logical conclusion to that reasoning...namely monsters gaining levels and class abilities as a matter of normal play - even when not controlled by players. For practically immortal creatures like liches that means liches who are not only Level 20 wizards, but level 20 fighter/assassins too. Level 20 Beholder/Monk anybody? I wonder how it manages Quivering Palm? You will unavoidably break tons of game assumptions when you allow undead/non-humanoid characters. Be prepared.

Vampires are humanoids, so I think you're stretching if you're going to claim that being an intelligent undead somehow prevents you from furthering your skills.

Again: the assumption that ancient creatures are absurdly powerful from years of studying is not uncommon both throughout previous editions of D&D and fantasy in general.

 

[Gillywonka]

Hmmm, with the way DnD combat is, that does pose a challenge. A dragon has a big mouth that can easily engulf an arm, so try this. Have the dragon make a called shot and the target is the arm. Say it is -6 to hit or the attack is at disadvantage. Then if the dragon hits, roll damage and if the damage done is equal to or greater than the lich's CON or STR (you chose), then the arm is severed. (this is a quasi abstract translation of the way GURPS/BRP/RQ does it... but way different combat system). Anyway, see how that works and adjust.

As for experience, heck yeah give him experience if he's earned it. Why wouldn't you, it's silly not go.

 

[Staccat0]

I say that if someone hits 0 HP and fails 3 checks you could maim them instead of kill them without much complaint. Beyond that... I dunno you are playing in a wierd game haha.

 

[Cernor]

Dragons (especially silver ones) have the greatest possible advantage against undead provided they have at least 1 level in cleric or paladin: Holy water deals radiant damage, no undead (iirc) resist radiant, and requires silver to make, while a silver dragon's scales are made out of silver . Given enough bottles it could have a nearly unlimited supply of holy water, and be able to drop it in bundles of 20 from a height to annihilate the lich from a distance. If the party begins getting overshadowed to the point that you need to remove the lich from the game, that seems like the easiest way to do it; and even if they survive the barrage of holy water, the dragon has a breath weapon to finish them off.

Something else that occurs to me is that being a lich means that particular PC can't be magically healed (due to being undead). If he goes down, he's going to stay down until he recovers naturally, and it might be fair to limit his natural healing (HD only, even at a long rest) to balance out his absurd power boost.

 

[adam_antio]

Ah, holy water is another nice asset! Thanks a lot. And yes, his inability to heal was factored in. Being the wizard, he's always the one who insists with long rests... and now he will more than ever! He's the toughest badass around here, but every damage he gets will count double

However, I don't want to wipe out the pc. The player will totally keep his chararacter... a player character. He's way more resistant than the others, but not more powerful. It's not like he's some out of control baby who needs to be kept in check by me :/ I just need the dragon to be able to stand on his own if the lich ever persuades the other party members to bring him down!

 

[Pickles III]

Why people are so against lich pcs?

The fact that you are here asking about how to deal with him should provide something of a clue.

 

[adam_antio]

I'm asking on behalf of a young silver dragon. The black dragon cult and his acid breathing followers the party is going to face now are well equipped to meet a lich. Same as the radiant inquisitors and the thundering druids that are after them

 

[steeldragons]

Silver dragons, as others have mentioned, are highly intelligent creatures. If this "young" silver dragon is unsure what to do to handle a lich...they will find someone who can...High powered cleric or paladin...another whole adventuring group to take down the lich with the party (since the party's complicity obviously reveals their truly evil nature). Find his older brothers/sisters/parents to come help/take care of it. Knows a couple of chatty coppers only a day's flight away (hundreds if not thousands of miles for a PC). They have acid breath, don't they? Sure they'd be willing to do him a favor in exchange for a favor/service/some gold...or good gossip.

This guy doesn't have to bite the abomination's arm off. He's a professed undead hunter, right? He needs it eliminated...and there's no reason whatever he needs to do it himself or by himself.

 

[MG.0]

Ancient creatures being insanely powerful ...

I wasn't referring ONLY to ancient creatures, but intelligent monsters in general.

I have no problem with intelligent monsters that have mastered some class abilities because they are truly unique. But that rarity is strained if you allow monster characters to level as a matter of course. If you have MULTIPLE levelling monster characters the tenuous claim to rarity goes pretty much right out the window.

Fixating only on the undead case: I think a lot of the argument against undead continuing to level can be explained by their undead status. They no longer have the same kind of drive and flexibility they had when alive.

 

[Sunseeker]

I wasn't referring ONLY to ancient creatures, but intelligent monsters in general.

I have no problem with intelligent monsters that have mastered some class abilities because they are truly unique. But that rarity is strained if you allow monster characters to level as a matter of course. If you have MULTIPLE levelling monster characters the tenuous claim to rarity goes pretty much right out the window.

Well, there are more adventurers in the world than just the party yes? So there are more monsters in the world advancing themselves than just (presuming you're talking about a party of monsters) the players. Much like how powerful party members become rarer it might not be unreasonable to see an entire army of level 2 kobold fighters. It would remain rare to see more than a select few of level 15 kobold fighters. Bugbears are, in this edition explicity written as a warrior-race so them being unable to advance as barbarians or fighters jars with the established lore.

Fixating only on the undead case: I think a lot of the argument against undead continuing to level can be explained by their undead status. They no longer have the same kind of drive and flexibility they had when alive.

That may be true for the shambling dead, such a zombies or skeletons, but vampires and liches are both traditionally represented as having just as much drive to gain more power, if not more drive than they had while living.