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xnosipjpqmhd
Guest
I guess my problem is not so much with the rules system. D&D rules are fine, more or less. I'm just looking for easy ways to modify published modules so they aren't so "over the top."IceFractal said:
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xnosipjpqmhd
Guest
This is, of course, true. (See my disclaimer in post #1.) This thread assumes you believe that having everything including the kitchen sink thrown into the default D&D world is cheesy. Planar travel, doppleganger-bloodlined half-beholders, psionics, alchemical items that simply replicate modern technology, etc.ColonelHardisson said:
To some extent, the diversification of gaming worlds helps mitigate this problem (if slightly). Those who like technology in their D&D can utilize modules written for Eberron, those who like planar travel might find some cool stuff in Spelljammer modules, etc. But most modules are published for mass appeal, so it doesn't really help.
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Emirikol
Adventurer
I hear you. I left traditional D&D a few years ago to play a lower cheeze D&D. I played some LG (living greyhawk for those ofyou who don't know), this past weekend and re-discovered the cheeze. Now it's REALLY moldy cheeze and all the expansion sales-tactic-books in the world have not helped the situation. They've made it worse.
Many players, whilst having a GREAT TIME playing regular D&D, are of little help because we/they tend to think that regular D&D is somehow normal. It's not. There's actually a lot of cheeze. A lot of that cheeze is fun, and has been fun in the past, but some folks seem to be ready to move beyond the cheeze and either get down to basics of swords & sorcery or to re-exeperience what D&D was before they learned/became-trained-to munchinize/powergame the whole bit..just like I was.
A lot of this problem has to do with the scenarios...the more entrenched the D&Disms, the harder it is to convert.
D&D cheeze is the D&Disms. Things that represent the "culture" of munchkinism in D&D. Things that represent power-mongering in D&D. Things that represent "illogical unrealisms" and "self indulgence" are some of the D&Disms. Sure, they feel good, but some want to move to a more "realistic" type of game.
I know some autistic gamers have a kniption when anyone mentions "unrealism," but let's face the facts shall we?
I'm going to start a top 100 list, that will be frequently be broken up in posts with prases like someone like me would post
, "ISNOHMIHOd20Y (I'm surprised no one has mentioned Iron Heroes or d20 modern yet)" or "I can't find my dictionary, thus we all have different definitions," or "It' syour game you do what you want," or "if you don't play high magic, your a jerk who's pushing low magic down my throat," or "I agree with everyone who is attacking this guy, but I want to fight it out with someone who isn't attacking him correctly," or "here's some kind of arguing falliciious terminology that shows how pompous I can be by pointing it out," or "I don't think D&D is cheezy and here's why..." or "Hey, I agree, let's have fun with this." The last two people are the ones that I personally find helpful
So, here's the d20 list of D&D cheezeisms that complicate scenario modification:
1. All EL's are balanced and no PC should ever feel threatened because the rules say so.
2. Since we all know the monster manual so well, we should all blurt out the monster name and weknesses as soon as the DM describes it..whether our character would know that or not.
3. What? No magic items? I don't think I'd like your game..I think I'd shy away from your game. Don't you know, D&D's not balanced unless you get 150% of the max wealth chart.
4. ..but I have this prestige class....
5. Does anybody think this is a kick-butt character or what? Strength 28....
6. EPIC RULES!
7. Beholders, Drow, half-anything, ghost-touch-anything, etc.
8. The DM should do all the work, afterall he can't play without players!
9. RAW and no other way or the DM is 'cheating' who cares if he's just trying to challenge our munchkin party
10. SCENARIO STUFF: There must be one of every species of PC character sprinkled throughout the scenario
11. Rather than make an interesting combat, the encounter relys on each creature's maximum firepower..like some kind of video game
12. Hey, it's a gothic encoutner, there must be undead
13. Humans are boring (see #11)
14. Help me out here
jh
Part of D&D cheezeisms is the same old arguments that I dredge up that we've all seen in the past.
Many players, whilst having a GREAT TIME playing regular D&D, are of little help because we/they tend to think that regular D&D is somehow normal. It's not. There's actually a lot of cheeze. A lot of that cheeze is fun, and has been fun in the past, but some folks seem to be ready to move beyond the cheeze and either get down to basics of swords & sorcery or to re-exeperience what D&D was before they learned/became-trained-to munchinize/powergame the whole bit..just like I was.
A lot of this problem has to do with the scenarios...the more entrenched the D&Disms, the harder it is to convert.
D&D cheeze is the D&Disms. Things that represent the "culture" of munchkinism in D&D. Things that represent power-mongering in D&D. Things that represent "illogical unrealisms" and "self indulgence" are some of the D&Disms. Sure, they feel good, but some want to move to a more "realistic" type of game.
I know some autistic gamers have a kniption when anyone mentions "unrealism," but let's face the facts shall we?
I'm going to start a top 100 list, that will be frequently be broken up in posts with prases like someone like me would post
, "ISNOHMIHOd20Y (I'm surprised no one has mentioned Iron Heroes or d20 modern yet)" or "I can't find my dictionary, thus we all have different definitions," or "It' syour game you do what you want," or "if you don't play high magic, your a jerk who's pushing low magic down my throat," or "I agree with everyone who is attacking this guy, but I want to fight it out with someone who isn't attacking him correctly," or "here's some kind of arguing falliciious terminology that shows how pompous I can be by pointing it out," or "I don't think D&D is cheezy and here's why..." or "Hey, I agree, let's have fun with this." The last two people are the ones that I personally find helpful So, here's the d20 list of D&D cheezeisms that complicate scenario modification:
1. All EL's are balanced and no PC should ever feel threatened because the rules say so.
2. Since we all know the monster manual so well, we should all blurt out the monster name and weknesses as soon as the DM describes it..whether our character would know that or not.
3. What? No magic items? I don't think I'd like your game..I think I'd shy away from your game. Don't you know, D&D's not balanced unless you get 150% of the max wealth chart.
4. ..but I have this prestige class....
5. Does anybody think this is a kick-butt character or what? Strength 28....
6. EPIC RULES!
7. Beholders, Drow, half-anything, ghost-touch-anything, etc.
8. The DM should do all the work, afterall he can't play without players!
9. RAW and no other way or the DM is 'cheating' who cares if he's just trying to challenge our munchkin party
10. SCENARIO STUFF: There must be one of every species of PC character sprinkled throughout the scenario
11. Rather than make an interesting combat, the encounter relys on each creature's maximum firepower..like some kind of video game
12. Hey, it's a gothic encoutner, there must be undead
13. Humans are boring (see #11)
14. Help me out here
jh
Part of D&D cheezeisms is the same old arguments that I dredge up that we've all seen in the past.
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You do realize, that by limiting the amount of magic items available, you skew the game in favor of full casters quite dramatically, right?
Fighters NEED magic items. Casters just like their magic items. I think that what you want is a different system, like Iron Heroes, as previously mentioned, or Mongoose Publishing's Conan.
Fighters NEED magic items. Casters just like their magic items. I think that what you want is a different system, like Iron Heroes, as previously mentioned, or Mongoose Publishing's Conan.
Mark CMG
Creative Mountain Games
Replace all magic items with mundane items. Replace all monsters with animals of a ferocious nature. Remove almost all NPC spellcasters, replacing some NPC Wizards/Sorcerers with NPC scholars, replacing NPC Clerics with lay persons, replacing NPC Druids with NPC Rangers (sans spells/magic), make NPC Paladins very rare, etc. Make almost any kind of magic something almost all NPCs either fear or revere but do not understand.
Be sure the backgrounds of any PC spellcasters emphasize how rare they are. During PC creation, utilize gps only as a shorthand for tallying what things the PCs start the game possessing, making sure to give a rationale in their backgrounds for how they came by the items (armor passed down from family or given to use in the service of the town guard, spellbook gifted from mentor who recognized rare talent, kits or tools earned through pre-campaign service to some noble house or other, etc.).
The players should be told in advance what changes have been made to the world and that their PCs are beginning the campaign as a cut above the normal people that fill the vast majority of the game world. Let them know, too, that in such a world when the mob has cause to revere such special people, they may request the PC save the town, but when they fear such a person, they are just as apt to pile on them, bind them to a stake, and burn the person alive.
Then go back in and sparingly place magic items, monsters, and NPC spellcasters where you feel warranted. Make sure the PCs can prepare for any encounters with creatures, persons, or situations that require special items or talents to overcome.
Shouldn't be much in the way of cheese left in such a game.
Be sure the backgrounds of any PC spellcasters emphasize how rare they are. During PC creation, utilize gps only as a shorthand for tallying what things the PCs start the game possessing, making sure to give a rationale in their backgrounds for how they came by the items (armor passed down from family or given to use in the service of the town guard, spellbook gifted from mentor who recognized rare talent, kits or tools earned through pre-campaign service to some noble house or other, etc.).
The players should be told in advance what changes have been made to the world and that their PCs are beginning the campaign as a cut above the normal people that fill the vast majority of the game world. Let them know, too, that in such a world when the mob has cause to revere such special people, they may request the PC save the town, but when they fear such a person, they are just as apt to pile on them, bind them to a stake, and burn the person alive.
Then go back in and sparingly place magic items, monsters, and NPC spellcasters where you feel warranted. Make sure the PCs can prepare for any encounters with creatures, persons, or situations that require special items or talents to overcome.
Shouldn't be much in the way of cheese left in such a game.
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Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
Adventure paths are written with the standard by the book assumptions in mind. If you are going to adapt them to lower treasure, lower XP and lower magic adventures, I'd suggest you just take the storyline, and write all your own encounters, otherwise your PCs will get slaughtered. It would probably take less work than rewriting the adventures anyway.
Vrecknidj said:Sadly, I think the best way to do this is to do what you describe--convert everything you want to use into stuff that's appropriate for the CFL (Cheese Factor Level),
Dave
Agreed. I think your guidelines look good. You may find it easier to run a less cheesy version of the game though, a modern one like OGL Conan and Castles & Crusades, or an old one like Classic or 1e (possibly 1e before Unearthed 'dawn of cheese' Arcana)
ironregime said:
The thing is that I'm sure I'm not the only one who's played in low-magic D&D and realized how utterly broken it is at mid-levels or higher. So my first suggestion is that if you're going to try and run low magic item D&D without radically altering the rules is to slow down advancement. A lot. Treat 10th level like you would 20th in a normal magic item level game -- a line that only the truly epic pass. And make sure that if your King Arthur crosses that line, that he's found his Excalibur and begun to truly unlock its power.
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