How to use 3.5 DnD without the "Big Six"

[00Machado]

What are the "big six"?

...edited...never mind. I found a related thread.

 

[Kestrel]

The unspoken assumption I was making was that this would be paired with a House Rule saying "the Big Six items (and similar spells) do not exist. You can't buy them, you can't make them, and you won't find them." With that rule in place, this power creep does not occur (assuming also that you get the maths right).



The idea, as I saw it, was to remove the 'Big Six' item types so that the game will see a lot more use of more offbeat and little-used items. It's not really about correcting a problem so much as seeking a different flavour. (That's also why there's no need to go for the 'every class is a spellcaster' cheat from "Iron Heroes" that you described - characters still have magic items, just items of a different type.)

If I really wanted to remove all magic items from the game, I would simply shift to "Iron Heroes" (or a non-d20 system) entirely, because the rewrites would, as you say, be massive. If, however, all I want to do is remove the boring static bonuses from the game, then I require a rather smaller set of changes, in line with the ones I described.

That was the intent, to keep the power level of the game the same, but simply remove those items types. As a GM, I find it annoying that I have to keep track of bland items that are simply there to increase the PC's power so they can handle the CRs as they level. It adds nothing to the game and the items are not interesting at all. Also, to make NPCs as powerful as the thier CRs suggest, you have to equip them with the same gear. Usually the PCs already have this gear, so its worthless to them aside as secondary gear or to sell. It seems it would be a lot easier to just make these types of items intrinsic to the characters/npcs and then focus on magic items that are quirky, strange, and wonderful, as opposed to representations of stats (which is what the big six are)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Didn't Midnight have the idea of 'heroic paths': Fell Hunter, Iron-born, giantblooded and so forth, that gave additional themed benefits per character level? That would probably be a neat and interesting way to go.

FWIW I don't see Andy's 'big six' in the same way - rarely see rings or protection or amulets of natural armour, but see:

1) all six stat boosters
2) magic weapons
3) magic armour
4) cloaks of resistance

So my observation is that it is either 'big four' or 'big nine' depending upon whether the stat boosters are separated out or not

 

[Emirikol]

Lower magic game..ahem..

beat..dead..horse... Crothian should be here to rag me in a minute.

jh

 

[delericho]

Lower magic game..ahem..

It's not about a lower magic game, as I see it - it's about a different magic game. Instead of every character stocking up with the magic weapon, magic armour, attribute boosters, skill boosters, ring of protection, amulet of natural armour and cloak of resistance (items that are undeniably useful, and probably better than the alternatives, but rather boring), the numbers are adjusted to remove those items, and give other 'quirky' items their time in the spotlight.

 

[Kestrel]

Exactly Delericho.

Yeah, should probably change it to big four. Its those items specifically that Im talking about. And in the case of Magic Armor and Weapons, I'm talking about enhancement bonuses. I would keep the special abilities (Flaming, Shock, Fortification, Energy Resistance etc) for magic items.

I really like the idea of heroic paths. It would allow for a seperate mechanic that could be layered on top of character levels, which would lessen complications for multi-classed characters.

Ultimately, the goal that I have for my own game is to take out the MSRP of Magic Items altogether, so I can give my players interesting items without feeling that I have some quota to keep up with so I don't kill them in an unbalanced encounter.

 

[S'mon]

1) Increase the Saving Throw progressions. More specifically, make it so that the PCs don't NEED those save boosting items to be good. High Level PCs are, and should be, awesome because of WHO they are, not what they carry.

C&C's +1 to every save, every level, seems to work very well, especially when set against spellcasters getting +1 to save DC every level. I was sceptical initially, but really it's very elegant and it eliminates the problem of 3e Fighters with their 2 rubbish saves, desperate for cloaks of resistance & other buffs. In C&C you only need buffs if going up against something of higher level/hd - in 3e terms, an opponent of CR above your level.

You could I think use something like the C&C saves in 3e easily enough; eg make 'good' saves an additional +3 bonus, then give everyone +1/2 levels instead of current +1/3 for poor saves. That would mean good saves started at +5 at 1st and went to +15 at 20th, poor saves start at +0 and went to +10 at 20th.

If that's still too low, giving a straight +1/level across the board is unlikely to unbalance the game, probably best to retain the +2 for 'good' saves, so good go from +3 at 1st to +22 at 20th, poor from +1 to +20.

Edit: C&C is really designed for play in the 1-12 level range, for D&D with a 1-20 level range I think the former progressions +5 to +15 and +0 to +10 probably fit the MM save DCs best.

 

[Klaus]

Okay, how about, instead of giving power to the characters, reducing the need for said power?

For instance:

Reduce the ACs of all creatures, like, say, -1 AC for CR 4-7, -3 for CR 8-11, -5 AC for CR 12-15, -8 AC for CR 16-19 and -10 AC for CR 20. Can be accomplished by reducing Dex or natural armor. This accounts for magic weapons and Str- and Dex- increasing items.

Reduce Con by twice the AC ammount given above (so -2, -4, -6, -8 and finally -10 at CR 20). This accounts for the bonus to damage by said items.

Reduce the DR, since characters will have more difficulty in bypassing them (5 becomes 2, 10 become 5 and 15 becomes 10). This accounts for special materials and properties.

Reduce the attack bonus by the ammounts given above, by lowering the Strength scores (or Dex scores for the Finesse monsters). This accounts for magic armor, shields, rings and amulets that increase AC.

Reduce the save DC for special attacks by the same ammount given for AC.

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

Okay, how about, instead of giving power to the characters, reducing the need for said power?

For instance:

Reduce the ACs of all creatures, like, say, -1 AC for CR 4-7, -3 for CR 8-11, -5 AC for CR 12-15, -8 AC for CR 16-19 and -10 AC for CR 20. Can be accomplished by reducing Dex or natural armor. This accounts for magic weapons and Str- and Dex- increasing items.

Reduce Con by twice the AC ammount given above (so -2, -4, -6, -8 and finally -10 at CR 20). This accounts for the bonus to damage by said items.

Reduce the DR, since characters will have more difficulty in bypassing them (5 becomes 2, 10 become 5 and 15 becomes 10). This accounts for special materials and properties.

Reduce the attack bonus by the ammounts given above, by lowering the Strength scores (or Dex scores for the Finesse monsters). This accounts for magic armor, shields, rings and amulets that increase AC.

Reduce the save DC for special attacks by the same ammount given for AC.

This is what I do because I hate some of the monsters as printed.

 

[Kestrel]

Klaus- Great idea...fixing the system on the backend instead of forcing changes for the players.