D&D 5E How We Beat the HD, HotDQ, Spoilers

[aramis erak]

No plot point hangs on it because it is nearly impossible to lose. Everything in this adventure is scripted for the PCs to win. even in the most unlucky case and one of them dies, they still achieve the objective.

This, together with the heavy railroad removes any and all player agency from the game. Consequences for attacking the dragon? There are none as the encounter is scripted. Consequences for not attacking it? None. Consequences for being smart and not enter a town under attack by much too powerful enemies? Not allowed because of railroad.

Same with the half dragon. No matter if you engage or not, win or not, it hardly has any influence on the campaugn thanks to the scripted fight and clone HD

There are SEVERAL points where player actions can kick them off the railroad.

The biggest is the fight with Cyanwrath. His kobold buddies ready to slay the families doesn't prevent them from charging Cyanwrath... but that will end their favored status with the Governor.

If they haven't peeved off the cult, they could JOIN the cult... at which point, they are way off the reservation. Not that the rest of the module becomes useless, but it can't be used as-is.
If they kill Cyanwrath in Episodes I or II, there are some changes in Episode III.
If they don't agree to the payments for Episodes II or III, they might not be continuing on the rails... but that doesn't mean the rest of the book is useless. A good DM can use the rest as a sourcebook of sorts for what's happening around them.

And there's plenty to do within the rails that isn't obligatory, and has some lasting impact upon the PCs, even if it doesn't have impact upon the setting. Like finding certain goodies, earning the favor of the townfolk, looting certain treasures. Burning down the huts in the camp (and thus pissing off the camp dwellers).

So, there is Agency. You're just not looking for it. It's there, it's not even all that subtle, and you have to accept that any structured module requires you to accept a reduction in overall agency in order to play; if you can't or won't, then there's always creative writing.... Because RPG rules are always a restriction on agency, and modules are lower still.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, you're right. That was my bad. I'm too lazy to go back and check but I think I quoted the wrong post and then incorrectly inferred "Is this what we want?" to be in regards to the lethality of an encounter. Reading comprehension fail.

Tell me about it. I do it all of the time. Hate getting old.

 

[KarinsDad]

My problem with that is that the actual situation is not so binary as I win vs I lose. I mean, the very title of this thread is "How we beat the Half-Dragon". So you'll have to forgive me if I'm skeptical of the "preordained to lose" argument.

Yes, it is not binary. It's more like 99% I LOSE / 1% I WIN. So for all intents and purposes, I LOSE.

And note: you have to take the I WIN / I LOSE concept in the context that Kordak introduced. It means that the final solution, shy of extremely unusual and rare events, is designed to be more or less preordained. One (or more) PCs takes a dirt nap (and actually, the Cleric went down in our group and many PCs were in low single digit hit points). It does not mean that any given player or group feels like they lost.

I suspect that most PC parties do the duel and very few PC parties actually defeat the HD, regardless of whether that is a party fight, or whether it is a duel fight.

I'm not seeing a lot of "Hey, we beat the HD TOO" posts around here.


I'm not quite getting why so many people think that I LOSE shoved down the players throats is a fun gaming style, but meh. To each their own.


And yeah, I get the whole "defeated but not lost" argument. I find it more of an after the fact rationale attempt than a well supported POV.

 

[Kordak]

Edited to remove unneccesary words

Hey, you say, "That's not my intent," that's cool. I believe you. I'm just letting you know how it comes off.

Wakarimashita, Arigato Gozaimasu. (said in a friendly, non-condescending, way).

 

[Kordak]

Wow! Somebody reading an intent into something you didn't mean just by reading what you wrote... where have I seen that before...?

You talkin' to me? Just want to know if, in that sentence, "you" = me or "you" = the general "you" who post on this thread? If you mean "me", then I will have to politely suggest that you have mistaken me for someone else. If you recall, I'm the one who said this further up the chain:

"Frankly, I'm not going to try to guess the intent, I can only criticize the actual, concrete, result (i.e. the encounter as written), not why the author wrote it...Heck I will even stipulate that he tried to do the best job under the given circumstances, just fell a bit short on this one and here's why/why not:"

So, I'm obviously not trying to read the Author's intent for this encounter, In fact, I've already given him the benefit of the doubt where intent is concerned.

That said, I will always try to make my intent clear.

 

[Wrathamon]

wow this thread got derailed ...

 

[Kordak]

wow this thread got derailed ...

Yeah, no kidding...sorry for my part in it. Ok everyone, back on the railroad...All Aboard!

 

[Kaychsea]

You talkin' to me?

No.

 

[fanboy2000]

I'm not seeing a lot of "Hey, we beat the HD TOO" posts around here.

FWIW, the group I DM for Encounters on Wednesdays beat the HD, but I didn't run the encounter as it was presented in the adventure. When I read the episode, I hated both the half-dragon and Blue Dragon encounters. So I talked to my long time friend and D&D player about them. He suggested that I make Cyanwrath memorable by introducing him earlier in the adventure so he doesn't just come out of nowhere. Basically, give the PCs some reason to fight him other than the guilt trip presented in the adventure.

So what I did was give the players a chance to see him briefly while they were sneaking back to the keep after a successful mission at the mill. He and some cultists had the captives and the party saw them. One of the members decided now was a good time to free the captives. Which started the fight, and the PCs had surprise because they'd been successfully sneaking around.

While they eventually won, when Cyanwrath got his turn, he dropped two PCs to 0 HP on his first turn. (Multiattack + action surge breath weapon is a awesome and terrible combination.) Doing that wasn't enough to overcome the advantage of surprise though and he went down. The best part of this is that they hadn't finished the capture a prisoner mission yet, so they captured Cyanwrath and I got to role-play him getting in questioned. It was lots of fun.

I replaced Cyanwrath with a half-Green dragon who was a 'replacement' from another part of the cult. He was not amused with what he saw as this cult's lack of discipline.

I'm not quite getting why so many people think that I LOSE shoved down the players throats is a fun gaming style, but meh. To each their own.

One thing my friend pointed out to me was that, in OP, PCs who belong to a faction get a free raise dead. Sure, they're down -5 to everything, but they get downtime days at the end of each episode that will remove that. This makes PC death more of an inconvenience than a problem.

I don't know if the adventure was written with that in mind, but there we go.

 

[KarinsDad]

While they eventually won, when Cyanwrath got his turn, he dropped two PCs to 0 HP on his first turn. (Multiattack + action surge breath weapon is a awesome and terrible combination.) Doing that wasn't enough to overcome the advantage of surprise though and he went down. The best part of this is that they hadn't finished the capture a prisoner mission yet, so they captured Cyanwrath and I got to role-play him getting in questioned. It was lots of fun.

Awesome.

This is a lot more memorable than the encounter as designed.