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How will the Doom Kickstarter fraud scandal affect future Kickstarters?

Janx

Hero
Well that's poor management, isn't it?

and that's my point about people without a business plan.

Or people who are assigned as PMs to projects and you never see them make a list or talk about getting the items on a list done. That's how I detect somebody who is called a PM, but doesn't actually know how to manage a project.

I think everybody who gives money to KS should view themselves as a Venture Capitalist. They need to look at the project and the info given, and decide if it is likely to succeed or not. And then to invest the money and not miss it if it fails.

I don't think the level of documentation needs to be as high for a KS project's business plan, but it does need to exist for the people doing the project's own success, let alone setting some level of confidence for investors.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Well that's poor management, isn't it?

Thus Kickstarter. One thing about thousands of amateurs* using a crowdfunding system is that thousands of amateurs are using a crowdfunding system. That's the selling point AND the problem.

*I'm one of them.
 

Fetfreak

First Post
Thus Kickstarter. One thing about thousands of amateurs* using a crowdfunding system is that thousands of amateurs are using a crowdfunding system. That's the selling point AND the problem.

*I'm one of them.

So very true.
I'm one of them as well, with a project about to finish unfunded. Luckily I learned a lot from it and met some great people.
But if we were successful, I don't think we would have problems with delivering what we promised. We already have a good chunk of work finished and I also saved up some of my own money in case I miss-calculated all the costs.
 

Janx

Hero
Thus Kickstarter. One thing about thousands of amateurs* using a crowdfunding system is that thousands of amateurs are using a crowdfunding system. That's the selling point AND the problem.

*I'm one of them.

Did you have a plan?

How much of the plan did you disclose in the KS?

As I recall, the EN World KS was staggered in modules. The more money, then more parts of EN World would be worked on. It was very rational to me, because I knew Morrus was paying a developer to write it. So each module was paid time to a developer.

I think the KS from the OT got muddied, because folks THOUGHT they were paying to print a boardgame and press some minis, and some art costs. Surely a project a dude can pull off putting together after work and on weekends.

Instead, there's rent, moving expenses, etc in there.

And from reading the comments on the KS page, some folks are really anxious to get the $100 back. While I too would be unhappy to lose $100, that kind of loss is only going to impact me for the current month. Then I get paid again.

Anybody who would be horribly impacted if they mis-allocated $100, probably should not be putting that money into KickStarters.

I'm thinking the guy running the failed KS isn't the only doofus on KS.
 

enrious

Registered User
I think there's a lot of issues going on with this one Kickstarter that could lead to a change in how some people fund projects but I doubt it'll have a big impact on Kickstarter itself or on other projects, because it takes a lot to overcome collective inertia.

In this Kickstarter, the project was producing a game that had finished artwork (and while parts of that artwork were redone to satisfy a large company that could potentially have made litigation a serious concern, the rework was done done by one of the licensors), maybe do some layout, editing, and playtesting of the rules (which were written by the other licensor), coordinated having the miniatures sculpted and ordered, and then shop around and send the artwork, rules, and miniature molds off to be manufactured - and then ship the products to the backers. Part of the profits were to go to the licensors.

Instead what has happened is that the project creator quit his job, created a company, licensed other IPs, bought a computer, made some movies, created a website where he took in further pre-orders, repeatedly lied during monthly status updates that "the files are at the printer I'm just waiting on them," and spent enough of the funds (which were more than the $122,000 from the Kickstarter) to render completion impossible.

All this with absolutely nothing to show, apart from there possibly being some miniature models somewhere in China, if he is to be believed.

Now, it is possible that he had saved up a ton of money prior to quitting his job and was living off that. I leave the likelihood of that up to the individual reader, weighing all of the evidence.

But even that aside, the Kickstarter was for a very specific product. At no point was creating a company, moving states, quitting a job to work full-time, buying a better computer, making movies, etc. ever mentioned until after he announced the project was cancelled, over a year after the Kickstarter ended. Had he done so and people still backed the project, I suspect there would be less acrimony and far more room to say in essence, "it's Kickstarter, you deserve whatever you don't get." Add to that the surprise that many backers had that the licensors weren't directly involved as they were used in the marketing and this other guy was in the shadows (as much as a Kickstarter creator can be).

Now, I personally have generally only backed products from companies with a track record (or individuals) or for projects that I have reason to suspect will complete it or if it's money that I can afford to never see again with no recompense and I suspect after this, there are 1200+ people who will be very closely evaluating any Kickstarter they consider backing and in the licensors' case, they've said they learned to be a lot more involved in anything involving their names, reputations, and work.

I doubt for the people upset about the $100, this is a matter of $100. This is, after all, a matter of more than $122,000 - I don't know about you, but that's more than a month's worth of hilarity. That's someone that needs to learn a life-lesson.
 
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Holy Bovine

First Post
I've been expecting a Kickstarter backlash pretty much since the start. I'm still sure it's coming. However, I don't think this will be the cause of the backlash, nor even particularly accelerate it - it's just one more bit of pressure against the dam.

(Basically, if you're* wanting to benefit from Kickstarter, you really need to be jumping in now, and you need your initial projects to succeed. When that backlash comes, it will be nigh-impossible for anyone 'unknown' to get funding - only people with a proven track record, or perhaps those with a "big name" behind the project, will have a chance.)

* Note: by "you" I mean you in general, not Morrus specifically, of course. :)

For me this is already a reality. It was from the moment I heard of Kickstarter. I really could not ever see myself giving money to a small, independent publisher/artist/inventor etc. well...ever. The 3 projects I have backed were all from established companies whose products I had purchased in the past and will do so again in the future. I idea of giving money to some guy in his garage with 'an idea' makes me shake my head in disbelief. I just couldn't ever do it.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
For me this is already a reality. It was from the moment I heard of Kickstarter. I really could not ever see myself giving money to a small, independent publisher/artist/inventor etc. well...ever. The 3 projects I have backed were all from established companies whose products I had purchased in the past and will do so again in the future. I idea of giving money to some guy in his garage with 'an idea' makes me shake my head in disbelief. I just couldn't ever do it.

The way I see it, Kickstarter fills two roles that I see as valuable. It allows someone without corporation-style budgets but with a solid idea and plan, like Rich Burlew reprinting some Order of the Stick books, the scratch necessary to achieve relatively simple goals (pay for a number of big print runs). That's the order fulfillment side of Kickstarter and, for small companies and independents, I think it's totally legit.

But it's also useful for generating venture capital, which has inherent risks of loss, for R&D projects that may not pan out. Being crowd-funding (volume over size), no single person or fund source has to sustain a major hit. So, giving a guy in his garage money if he has a good idea? YES, but only to the point where I'm comfortable losing the money without receiving a return. If that guy needs to be able to pay everyone back because a project didn't work out, then he's really got to either work with money he already has, saving that investment money in case he has to issue a refund, or he's got to go into debt. And neither of those situations is ideal (and will probably cause people needing the venture capital idea to seek funding elsewhere, leaving Kickstarter to just be an order fulfillment system).
 

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
I wish the initiators of the projects would be more careful with their promised rewards. Instead of "One copy of the game with ..." just write something like "If the game sees production, you'll recieve a voucher for a 35% discount."

Of course, backers wouldn't give you 60+$ for this. But on the other hand you might get the interest of real patrons willing to give you 5-10$ just to help you start it.

I have just backed one project last year, which is horribly late, with 20$. I have recieved 3 PDFs, while 7 PDFs, 7 printed books, one poster and a box should have arrived by today. It was pretty clear to me that the author's timeline was unrealistic from the very beginning; I was aware of the risk. I trusted the author to deliver at least a part of the promised things - which he did - so it was a calculated risk for me.

But there seems to be a trend for high-proced RPG products financed via Kickstarter: Numenera, Zeitgeist, Exalted, what have you. Backing such a project with 60+$ plus 30$ shipping to Germany? A project where I can't know whether the final product appeals to me? While the risk of project wreck might be much lower with these things, the stakes are much higher. I, for one, don't have lots of free money I can throw at something for just the hope to be happy with our proud of being the owner of a unknown RPG book at some undisclosed time in the future.
 

delericho

Legend
The 3 projects I have backed were all from established companies whose products I had purchased in the past and will do so again in the future...

Yep. I've only ever backed one KS (rebuilding this site), and don't really expect to back any others. If I were to back one, it would be something like Reaper Bones - a project from a reputable business to do some specific task. (Only problem with Reaper Bones was that I actively don't want hundreds of unpainted models sent to me all at once!)

The way I see it, Kickstarter fills two roles that I see as valuable. It allows someone without corporation-style budgets but with a solid idea and plan...

But it's also useful for generating venture capital, which has inherent risks of loss, for R&D projects that may not pan out...

Yes to both. There's also a third use that I can see: as a gauge of customer demand. Let's face it: gamers are much more likely to demand "a book on X" than we are to actually buy that book, at least in many cases. But by using Kickstarter, the customers are forced to put their money where their mouth is - if they're not willing to pay money for the thing, the project team know that before they spend months developing that thing.

(In effect, this also makes it something of a pre-order system for low-volume custom goods.)

I think that's also a totally legit use for the system. Problem is, just as they don't want to dedicate time to something that might not sell, neither do I want to risk money on something that might never materialise.
 


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