How would you balance the Bard & the Cleric?

[Hemlock Stones]

Balancing A Bard And A Cleric

GREETINGS!

I see the simplest solution as a length of plank centered on a saw horse. The teeter totter effect can be balanced by loading the pockets of the less pudgy one with stones in the event one of the two charcters is more pudgy than the other.

Heh heh...

Bone Daddy Hath Spoke!

 

[Gargoyle]

Like Shilsen, my house rule for clerics is that they do not gain heavy armor proficiency. I do think they are a bit too powerful, but not grossly overpowered. Clerics having heavy armor seems to intrude into the fighter's arena, and I like to see more use of medium armor anyway.

The problem with the bard is that unless your group is very large, you don't need a character who is a jack of all trades / buffer. You're much better off with a specialist, so bards (at lower and mid levels anyway) aren't really as useful. In a bigger group, they're great if played well, so I don't really think they need any more changes. Balance is not absolute, it varies tremendously from campaign to campaign, and I think bards have their place.

However, for bards, I'm considering the prestige bard from Unearthed Arcana for my next campaign. I think all bards should be worldly, and a first level bard seems like a contradiction. Plus, I really think bards should only be played by experienced players who know something about what they're getting into. If a newbie gamer wanted to play a bard, I think I'd encourage him to try something else first. (Gotta love memories of that 1E bard)

 

[tarchon]

umm, who has magic vestment? Who has shield of faith? Both of which stack with any armour worn and scale up with level (unlike shield and mage armour, the only two arcane AC boosting spells that immediately come to mind.

Does Haste give an AC bonus this week? Cat's Grace is worth AC too, if you're not playing spam in a can. The bard song Inspire Heroics is worth +4, I believe, though you don't get it until something like 15th level.
There are several new buff spells on the bard list now, Heroism, Greater Heroism, and Good Hope, though they largely overlap bard songs. There's Heroes' Feast on the 6th level list too.

 

[Hemlock Stones]

Balancing The Bard And Cleric, Seriously Folks

GREETINGS!

The Complete Book of Eldritch Might does offer a much better collection of spells and powers to enhance the Bard.

Keep in mind that Bards have a great deal on the access to skill checks. Role playing a Bard can be one of the most entertaining characters to do. Thats where I would seek enjoyment from that character.

From the whole idea of roll-playing a Bard vs. a Cleric. That's rough. The Cleric has all of the advantages. But once again that's the failure of the D&D dynamics.

I've yet to play D20 Modern, but here's where I am going with this. When a game begins, you have several entry level classes: Warrior, Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner and Expert. Players spend 2-3 levels in those classes at the beginning. Afterwards, they then take classes that focus on what they want the character to be ie. Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Rogue, Monk, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Psion, etc. What should happen is that the abilities and skills of a Bard should be better than the current straight Bard approach. Given what Monte Cook developed with the concept of Racial levels, characters could start out first with 2-3 Racial levels and then proceed on to the more defined Class structure focus.

The reason I suggest this is that I've always felt that the whole idea of a Paladin having all of those special abilities at first level along with a noble task in life at the ripe old age of 15-16 is a bit much. the same thing can be argued with the Ranger and Cleric classes. Monks on the other hand seem to progress correctly. Bards as a class in the Player's Handbook don't have a great deal to look forward to. The BoEM from Monte Cook has got it right!

Bone Daddy Hath Spoke!
Other elements need to

 

[Remathilis]

I think the best way to balance all classes is to blend generic classes (UA) with more specific PrCs and go from there...

That said, I see more bards played than clerics. Go fig.

 

[Nifft]

In my experience (as a player and DM), I've seen more people play the BATTLE-CLERIC archtype than the CURE-BATTERY archtype.

So, to balance Clerics, IMHO:
- Remove Righteous Might. Maybe make it a feature of War Priest or something (spend a Turn attempt as a Swift action to get Righteous Might effect for 1 round).
- Remove Divine Power. Clerical BAB is a major balancing factor. Sure, Sorc/Wiz get Mage's Transformation, but they're not often in full plate, and have half a Cleric's base HP.
- Remove Heavy Armor Proficency. So they'll wear a Breastplate or Chainmail. Get in line with the Barbarian.

IMC, I also remove Medium Armor proficency. My reasoning is this: if you want to be a Combat Cleric, take one level of Fighter or Paladin. It's far cheaper than what a Sor/Wiz has to go through (taking 1 level of warrior-type and then 10 levels of EK), and you can actually use the armor proficencies that you gain.

In trade, I allow Clerics to spontaneously convert prepared spells into Domain spells. (Yes, I had to re-work the Domain spells to be mostly from the Cleric's own spell list, but that makes me happy in many ways -- I hated seeing every Cleric get a bunch of what should be exclusive Sorc/Wiz spells.)

-- N

 

[mmu1]

umm, who has magic vestment? Who has shield of faith? Both of which stack with any armour worn and scale up with level (unlike shield and mage armour, the only two arcane AC boosting spells that immediately come to mind.

Shield of faith lasts ONE minute, and doesn't provide a meaningful AC boost until you're in the mid to high levels - and then, you won't use it because you can't afford to waste the first round of combat casting a 1st level spell.

Magic Vestment is decent on paper, but progresses at a glacial pace, and for the most part it's not worth casting because it'll barely (if at all) improve the enhancement bonus of the armor you're expected to have at a given level.

Besides, I didn't just say AC - I said AC and evasion (meaning by that all kinds of things that prevent people from hitting you), so you can add Mirror Image, Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, Blur, Displacement, Gaseous Form, Blink and Fly to that list. The cleric has what exactly in that department? Sanctuary and Air Walk?

 

[James Heard]

I think if I were going to bump the power of the bard to make him a more desirable class selection I would do one or all of these things:
1. Three good saves: He's a lover, not a fighter - but living on style and verve makes bards tougher than you'd expect.
2. Luck Bonus to AC: Equal to CHA, again this would make Bards more survivable without kicking the feet out from under the rest of the group's niches. If balance on this were suspect, I think I'd try to stage it in increments of maximum bonuses that could be applied at any given level.
3. Bard Song Metamagic: Giving bards the ability to trade out bard song usages for metamagic effects would be really cool. "I'm gonna trade out two of my bard songs for an Empowered Shout," without raising the spell slot level would make the bards have a teeny bit of uniqueness without really having a terrible impact on the game I think.
4. Skill Bonuses: At some point Bards should be able to do things like always take 10 on CHA skill rolls without spending any extra effort or time, like the Skill Mastery Special ability for Rogues.
5. Resistances: Elf-like resistances to enchantment effects perhaps, or resistances verus Sonic effects.
6. More songs: At the very least I'd give Bards some 'skill songs', songs that give Bards and their allies bonuses to certain skills. Ever wonder what those guys were doing singing songs while rowing? With a bard it would be pretty obvious. I mean, seriously, duh. Why this wasn't in there I have no clue.

Like I said, I'm fairly certain that implementing ALL of these suggestions might be a little overkill. On the other hand, they might not be if you were balancing them against the cleric. Mostly and obviously my suggestions are aimed at a certain flavor of possible Bards I think, as opposed to the wandering through the motions generalist that the Bard is currently. I tried to think of what the Bard's role in the group is and where everyone else fits in though too, and where that is I think is in a sort of non-fighter melee combatant with minor spell abilities and a really choice role in interaction. It isn't that the Bard isn't suited for that role already, it just needs to be MORE suited I think. You know, enough minor cookies attached to the class that a certain distinct play style is rewarded and enhanced. Bards shouldn't be the class you look to when you can't find a 'specialist' class, it should be the FIRST place you look to for a certain style of play.

 

[der_kluge]

Cleric - IMC, I have removed "Heavy Armor Proficiency". I have also removed some spells that I felt were more in the druid's arena - Repel vermin, and Insect plague. I also placed the [evil] tag on Slay Living.

I have modified a few other spells, but most of those changes have more to do with my campaign, than they do with attempts at balancing the class.


Bards, on the other hand, are another kettle of fish.

I like Mossfoot's approach, but it doesn't solve the "guy standing there playing some Abba on his flute while his comrades are engaged in deadly combat with a dragon" problem that was cited earlier. This is a very hokey concept, and one I personally have a hard time getting my head around.

I've actually been working on a couple of classes. I split the Bard into two classes - archaeologist, and minstrel.

I posted my archaeologist class in House Rules quite a while back. I can dig up that thread if anyone wants it. Some described it as a bit weak, which might be true, but it's a good foundation. Basically, it's a sort of cross between rogue/transmutor, with some inate ability to identify magic items.

The second class I've been working on is the minstrel, and it is a pure music-based class inspired in large part by the bard from Everquest. Bard's in everquest had a variety of songs, and every level they gained a new one. They had songs that could find corpses (useful in EQ), songs that slowly healed everyone in the party, songs that gave everyone in the party "expeditious retreat", and a variety of other buffing, utility, and damage songs. It was a great class in that game, and as someone mentioned earlier, everyone wanted one, especially clerics (I played a cleric in EQ), and having a bard was great, because it meant the cleric's job was much easier.

In theory, a great bard class should be able to augment the abilities of EVERY other class in the group. The bard should be able to help the wizard with some utility spells, help the rogue gather information, help the fighter fight, and help the cleric heal. All the bard can do now is seduce politicians and women. That's about it.

My minstrel was based on the EQ bard, and I came up with a list of 80 songs. Every song could be sung as long as the minstrel desired, and the effect lasted as long as the minstrel was singing. Some songs were based on vocals, others on stringed instruments, or brass, or other. If a song could be created with vocals, it meant that a song that required strings could be played at the same time to double up some effects. You can't play a trumpet, and a lute at the same time, for example.

I divided songs into categories. I had utility songs, defensive, offensive, clerical, and enchantment. Furthermore, the idea of "twisting" a song enabled the minstrel to stop one song, start another and, for a brief time, have some overlapping song effects.

I admit, it's a complex class, and quite a bit different than anything in D&D. It would require a mountain of playtesting, and might actually be a bit boring to play, since all the minstrel could do, really, is just stay out of harm's way, and manage a jukebox of songs.

I also haven't worked on it in a while, but if anyone is interested, I would be willing to send you my files, and I would be happy to entertain ideas and suggestions, we could work on refining it together.

 

[Farland]

Forgive me if this was said, but how about switching the HD of the bard and cleric?