How would you handle this?

[CRGreathouse]

Not so easy. Grapples provoke an AoO, and if that AoO deals any damage, you fail to even start the grapple. Giants don't miss much, so better try this only while he's flat-footed.

Ah, but what if the halfling provokes an AoO while moving up to the giant? When he tries to grab the giant, it won't have any AoO left - unless it has Combat Reflexes.

 

[jontherev]

Re: Re: Re: Re: How would you handle this?

According to the DMG, Slippers of Climbing give you a speed of 15. So, a Monk with a speed of 90 is still limited to a speed of 15 when using the boots to move on vertical surfaces. A halfling whose speed is increased from 20 to 40 with Expeditious Retreat is still limited to a speed of 15. It does not matter how fast the monk or halfling can pump their legs, the slippers still have a limit.

Yes, but Expeditious Retreat gives an enhancement bonus to speed. That is different from the monk's speed. This is beside the point, but I wonder if they meant for the slippers to give speed/2 instead of the flat 15' (meaning halflings would only get 10'). Though, it does make sense that shorter characters should be able to travel vertically faster than their taller cohorts. If this was actual climbing, I would agree with you. Or even if it was the spell Spider Climb, since you are moving with both hands and feet.

Fine, but he has to hang on. What prevents the Giant from just shrugging him off? The slippers? The magic might be fine against a typically stationary object like a wall, but a moving Giant who doesn’t want him there? If the magic does not work against oily, icy or slippery surfaces, imagine what it would do against a surface that moves away or attempts to knock the halfling off.

Yes, the slippers DO prevent this. You need a 24 strength to pull off the halfling (20 + caster level 4=24). A giant bull with a 24 strength could buck the halfling off. A frost giant with 29 strength could not do this the same way, but would need to actually PULL him off. Moving surfaces wouldn't effect the slippers imo unless they shook with the force of 24 strength.

What?!?!?!?!?

No need for histrionics.

This was a Frost Giant, right? 15 feet tall? So, his back ranges from 8 to 12 feet off the ground. And a 2.5’ tall halfling is supposed to jump up that high? Over three times his height?

At 6 foot tall, that would be the equivalent of me jumping straight up 20 to 29 feet off the ground.

Talk about what should be impossible. Jump should totally be out of the question.

Remember, even with Slippers of Climbing, it is only 15 feet up in 6 seconds. The Giant does not stand like a statue for that entire 6 seconds and wait the 3+ second for the halfling to get up there.

This screams for a grapple check.

Actually, you are partially correct. A non-monk, non-boots of S&S-wearing halfling is limited to a total 5' (if he's 2.5' tall) high jump. And his hands would be 5' off the ground, not his feet. Still, I was going for cinematics here, so this would be sufficient. After all, the giant's rump is a perfectly nice landing pad. He could just walk the rest of the way.

Same for the combat capable Giant. He should have a reasonable chance of stopping the halfling based on his combat abilities, not solely on the abilities of the halfling.

He does, read on.

It seems like you are trying to really stretch it. Grapple is designed for grabbing and hanging onto an opponent. Tumbling and Jump are not designed for that at all.

The “logical” solution is to use grapple.

Jumping makes no sense whatsoever when you are discussing a halfling versus a giant’s back and Tumbling would be slightly ok to avoid a movement AoO if dropping on the Giant’s back from above, but it should do nothing to prevent the AoO that an unarmed attack on a creature provokes and it shouldn’t be used to help a halfling launch himself 8+ feet into the air.

Point conceded. Grapple it is.

Fairly complex and ignores core rules.

Fairly complex?

It ignores the fact that 3E has no facing, hence, the halfling really cannot run up the back of the Giant without the Giant simultaneously turning in his space and facing the halfling to prevent it.

This is a gray area. I know there's no facing in 3E, but things happen. You can't just prevent someone from doing this because 'there's no facing in 3E'. It should, as is, possible. And when this happens, unfortuneately, facing pops into play since the giant can't see his back. This is different than a rogue saying, "I walk up to the giant and stab him in the back."

I think what is bothering you about using grapple is that the Giant will almost always kick the snot out of the halfling when doing it. But, that’s what Giant’s do.

Yes, but read on...

You should not allow the description of the combat maneuver to take this out of the realm of combat and place it into the realm of skills. Skills are fine to perform certain tasks during combat, but they should not be used to grab onto and hold an opponent, even if the character is using a magical item to assist him. That should be a combat maneuver, just like tripping, overbearing, bull rushing, or any other form of non-weapon combat maneuver.

I agree. Let's use grapple. After rereading grapple rules again, it became clearer to me. So, the giant gets his AoO on the halfling, and if successful, the grapple fails. If not, the halfling gets to make a melee touch attack, and if successful, he's on his way up the giant's legs. The halfling doesn't need to make a Hold, just a grab. And, it's a good thing, since he automatically fails a Hold check vs. large creatures. Now, facing comes into play, so the DM rules here on what, if any, modifiers come into play.

So, using grapple isn't actually as hard as I thought it was. Using it while the giant is flat-footed, or when he's already used his AoO for the round could make this maneuver fairly simple. Unless he has Combat Reflexes that is.

While I'm here, how do you rule sneak attacks vs. giants? By the rules, no vital areas are in limbs, so no sneak attack. Apparently, veins, arteries, and achilles heel are not vital. So, by the letter of the rules, small pc's can only sneak attack giants with ranged weapons, or by using a technique like the one presented in this thread. Or, by using a reach weapon I suppose.

 

[jontherev]

Yes

Ah, but what if the halfling provokes an AoO while moving up to the giant? When he tries to grab the giant, it won't have any AoO left - unless it has Combat Reflexes.

I was thinking of that and meant to mention it in my previous post. I think only Stone Giants have CR automatically. Of course, you never know...

 

[Galfridus]

Not so easy. Grapples provoke an AoO, and if that AoO deals any damage, you fail to even start the grapple. Giants don't miss much, so better try this only while he's flat-footed.

Or get someone else to "distract" the giant by provoking an AoO before you go. Or have Mobility and hope the AC saves you.

As for Spider Climb movement: the spell description says you climb at half your speed. Given that your feet get sticky, it seems reasonable to me that it incorporate enhancements to that speed. The DMG does say that the Slippers give you a 15' move, though. Personally, I would ignore that in favor of the spell desc (does a heavily armored gnome get a 15' climb move?), but by the rules it is always 15'.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, that's always a grey area - how smaller creatures actually reach the vital spots on significantly larger creatures.

Well, I think there are a few veins in the arms and legs that would cause a lot of bleeding if cut, so maybe the halfling hits those. Or, in the fluid nature of combat, the giant overextends itself bringing it's other vital areas into reach.

IceBear

 

[chilibean]

It doesn't seem like a tumble check at all to me. Tumbling to me implies moving by other than simply walking or running. Jumping, skipping about, rolling, cart-wheels, etc... The ONLY part of you that is sticky is the boots, so if you tumble while on your way up his back, you'll fall off. The lower movement rate would seem to come from how you have to walk. You cant pick one foot up before the other is all the way down, so you'll walk with a kinda goofy looking shuffle.

To me it's just moving more than 5' in a threated area, so it provokes an AOO, plus it would require a rather difficult balance check (not tumble check). I think a reasonable DC would be 15 + the giants strength and dex mods, every round or you fly off for falling damage and land prone in a random adjacent square.

Once he is up there and maintaining balance, I'd consider the halfling effectively invisible and on higher ground. Anyone trying to attack the halfling would risk the same thing as attacking someone while grappling.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The "no vitals in limbs" rule means that you can't stand 5 feet away from the giant's threatened area and attack its arms as it flails around - you have to be rioght up next to it. Cutting the tendons in the giant's foot should work just fine.

 

[jontherev]

interesting...

The reason why I'm asking all of this is because my halfling rogue-type has giants as a favored enemy. He HATES giants. Our party is about to teleport off to a frost giant stronghold and so I'm wondering about some cool tactics for my pc. I just added spiderclimb to my boots of elvenkind/striding, so I thought this would be really neat to try out.

It appears that if my pc can successfully mount the giant (insert joke here), he will be in a rather good position (no pun intended). For, any grapple attempts by the giant would incur a AoO, which will succeed most of the time and ruin the grapple. It also keeps my pc away from other giants, who are free to have the same experience (I have combat reflexes). I also have a ring of blinking, so I'm not so concerned about having to maintain a sneak attack position as I am about being in a defensable place while fireballs are going off around me (half damage from area attacks due to ring + evasion = improved evasion). Am I asking for it here, or does this sound like a good, heroic plan that could work? Note also, that even if he DOES succeed at grappling me, I have a 50% chance of slipping right through his fingers each round, due to the ring. Thanx again for all the replies.

 

[Conaill]

Re: interesting...

It appears that if my pc can successfully mount the giant (insert joke here), he will be in a rather good position (no pun intended). For, any grapple attempts by the giant would incur a AoO, which will succeed most of the time and ruin the grapple.

I'm not sure it would work that way. Obviously, the rules are somewhat vague on how grappling works if you only do a Grab, and skip the Hold step.

- If this were a full grapple on behalf of the halfling, obviously the giant would just need an opposed grapple check (without AoO) to retaliate.

- If the halfling was grabbing with his hands, I'd say the following paragraph would apply: If a combatant's target (the halfling) is already grappling someone else, then the combatant (the giant) can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target (halfling) doesn't get an attack of opportunity against the combatant (giant), and the combatant's grab automatically succeeds.

- Since the halfling has essentially "grabbed" onto the giant with his feet, I guess he still has his hands free to take an AoO. Not sure I would be willing to be that lenient if I were your DM though...

 

[jontherev]

Re: Re: interesting...

I'm not sure it would work that way. Obviously, the rules are somewhat vague on how grappling works if you only do a Grab, and skip the Hold step.

- If this were a full grapple on behalf of the halfling, obviously the giant would just need an opposed grapple check (without AoO) to retaliate.

- If the halfling was grabbing with his hands, I'd say the following paragraph would apply: If a combatant's target (the halfling) is already grappling someone else, then the combatant (the giant) can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target (halfling) doesn't get an attack of opportunity against the combatant (giant), and the combatant's grab automatically succeeds.

Yes, but this is referring to combatants other than the halfling and giant. For example, other giants in the combat. However, the halfling is not grappling after he's successfully atop the giant, so the point is moot anyway.

- Since the halfling has essentially "grabbed" onto the giant with his feet, I guess he still has his hands free to take an AoO. Not sure I would be willing to be that lenient if I were your DM though...

Why not? The way I see it, is once the halfling succeeds at the grab, no more grappling is involved unless the giant tries to do so on his action. The halfling is free to move on the giant, incurring normal AoO's for movement more than 5' of course.

Ah, another question. If said halfling were on the giant's back, would that provide a flanking situation for most, if not all, other melee combatants attacking the giant? I would think so. Everywhere he turns, someone's at his back.