How would you handle this?

[Romus]

The party is approached by another group that could potentially be dangerous, but so far walks up to them calmly. One of the NPCs comes closer to talk and has a walking staff in his hand, which could be used as a drawn weapon.

Questions:

1. Can a party member say he is going full defense before any initiative is rolled?

2. Can a party member say he is holding an action in case the NPC tries to attack (again before init is even rolled)?

3. Can the guy with the staff get a surprise attack if he suddenly goes on the offensive?

4. Is the party considered Flat Footed even when they suspect an attack?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The party is approached by another group that could potentially be dangerous, but so far walks up to them calmly. One of the NPCs comes closer to talk and has a walking staff in his hand, which could be used as a drawn weapon.

Questions:

1. Can a party member say he is going full defense before any initiative is rolled?

2. Can a party member say he is holding an action in case the NPC tries to attack (again before init is even rolled)?

3. Can the guy with the staff get a surprise attack if he suddenly goes on the offensive?

4. Is the party considered Flat Footed even when they suspect an attack?

No, no, no, possibly (determining that is what initiative is for).

Doing it the way you stated you would is, of course, fine (it's your game, after all), but it does amount to a basic rewriting of the initiative rules.

The initiative rules were written with the understanding that most of the time adventurers are in a situation of potential combat. The whole point of the roll of initiative is to see who reacts fastest when combat goes from "potential" to "actual."

Look at it this way ... if the PCs can do all that you've suggested, why can't the NPCs? And if both the PCs and NPCs are doing all this out-of-combat funky caution stuff, aren't you right back to determining who's better at it? That's what initiative is for.

 

[Romus]

Yeah I think you are right. I started thinking, right after i finished posting, that full defense involves things like dodging and holding your shield up over your head and stuff. But what about the guy who suddenly goes on the attack (after acting like he just wants to talk) does he get the high initative or just a free surprise attack?

 

[green slime]

Spot check to see if the defender picks up on the subtle hints as the would be aggressor shifts his weight, and braces himself. Given that the party contains booty-kickers of some experience, the DC shouldn't be very high.

Those that succeed with the Spot check get to act in the surprise round, and may even end up doing so before the would-be attacker (he gave himself away). Others are flat-footed.

 

[BSF]

Part of initiative reflects watching the "other guy" flinch. Sure, the walking stick is in his hand, but he still has to strike with it, same as if you had a sword ready. As he raises it to hit somebody, everyone else might react before the blow actually lands. As the rules are written, it is tough to catch PC's completely off guard like that.

However, you could consider this an application of Improved Initiative.

Now, to move to the realm of house rules, you could add a few things.

Maybe a good Bluff let's you get an initiative bonus if the other guys fail their Sense Motive? Maybe a good Bluff gives you a surprise strike if the other guys fail their Sense Motive?

You could create a new feat that gives you an Initiative bonus. (You already have Improved Initiative from the Players HandBook, Blooded from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook and I think the Complete Warrior has it now, and you have Combat Sense from Portals & Planes.) Or create a feat to allow the above applications of Bluff.

 

[Darklone]

Actually, I never had a problem to allow players full defense outside of combat. Since it gives a dodge bonus, it's not working anyhow against surprise attackers or someone who catches you flatfooted

 

[Steverooo]

The party is approached by another group that could potentially be dangerous, but so far walks up to them calmly. One of the NPCs comes closer to talk and has a walking staff in his hand, which could be used as a drawn weapon.

Questions:

1. Can a party member say he is going full defense before any initiative is rolled?

Yes, but to see if the NPC strikes, first, you have to roll Initiative...

2. Can a party member say he is holding an action in case the NPC tries to attack (again before init is even rolled)?

Yes, but to see if the NPC strikes, first, you have to roll Initiative...

3. Can the guy with the staff get a surprise attack if he suddenly goes on the offensive?

No. The PCs are expecting attack. They have told you so... He can still act before they are capable of reacting, however... To see if the NPC strikes, first, you have to roll Initiative...

4. Is the party considered Flat Footed even when they suspect an attack?

It depends... Who won Initiative?

In other words, the PCs can specify actions before the roll, but Initiative must still be rolled before figuring out who got surprise, or who did what... If the PCs "Ready" actions and the NPC never attacks, it makes no difference!

On the surprise, though, I wouldn't allow it. Surprise is for (N)PCs who aren't aware of each other. Since everyone is aware of each other, here, I wouldn't allow any surprise rounds, at all.

 

[Shazman]

In this situation, having the guy with the staff make a bluff check opposed by the PC's sense motive checks might work. The PC's that make the chech can act in the surprise round. I don't know what you'd do about the other NPC's though, so you might want to stick with the refular initiative rules.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Bear in mind the long-term effects, if you alter the initiative rules for this situation (including things like allowing opposed Bluff checks) ... you're basically telling your players, "Hey, you should attack everyone, because if you don't they're gonna have a better chance of acting first in combat over you."

I don't know about y'all, but that's exactly the kind of behavior I don't want to encourage.

 

[Zad]

1. Can a party member say he is going full defense before any initiative is rolled?

Technically: no. It's a combat action and you're not in combat. Either get everyone on the initiative rolls and handle actions from there, or accept that the PC is on full defense even though it's not combat yet.

2. Can a party member say he is holding an action in case the NPC tries to attack (again before init is even rolled)?

Sure I'd allow that. But then again, eveyrone else is doing the same thing. How do we determine who goes first? Why we roll initiative! So effectively, no they can't do that. I would consider allowing a readied action (I'm not sure what you mean by "holding") but the player would have to have a weapon out and be close enough to attack, which is going to be pretty obvious and threatening to the other party.

3. Can the guy with the staff get a surprise attack if he suddenly goes on the offensive?

Absolutely not if the party is ready for some kind of attack.

4. Is the party considered Flat Footed even when they suspect an attack?

Technically, yes. But in a situation like this, I would say no they are not.