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D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +


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Reynard

Legend
Supporter
I worry that would be tedious in practice, but I admit I haven't played any systems that do this. Maybe it works better than it sounds.
It works great. Keeps everyone on their toes. the only concern is you kind of have to all agree upon what "one round" duration means. "Until the start of their next turn" works fine of course, but some stuff talks about rounds and round by round initiative can kind of mess with that.

But otherwise, I concur: re-rolled initiative every round makes D&D more fun.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I worry that would be tedious in practice, but I admit I haven't played any systems that do this. Maybe it works better than it sounds.

Edit: I really like the idea of not knowing what my initiative will be from round to round.
It's tedious if you go the WotC-era route and use d20-with-modifiers for initiative.

Put it on a smaller die (e.g. d6), do away with all modifiers except in rare circumstances, and allow ties, and it's pretty smooth. We've done it that way for decades in our 1e-adjacent games; can't see why it wouldn't work in any other edition.

And the adventage of using d6 is that because everyone has loads of them, it's easy to track: once rolled, people just leave their init. dice in front of them on the table and the DM only has to worry about tracking the init's of the foes.
 

It's tedious if you go the WotC-era route and use d20-with-modifiers for initiative.

Put it on a smaller die (e.g. d6), do away with all modifiers except in rare circumstances, and allow ties, and it's pretty smooth. We've done it that way for decades in our 1e-adjacent games; can't see why it wouldn't work in any other edition.

And the adventage of using d6 is that because everyone has loads of them, it's easy to track: once rolled, people just leave their init. dice in front of them on the table and the DM only has to worry about tracking the init's of the foes.
I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but Dragonbane uses a deck of cards for initiative. Since there are no duplicates in the deck you never need to worry about ties. Dragonbane uses a mechanic where you redraw initiative each round (and their version of Fighter gets to chose whether or not to keep their card from the previous round, which is a nifty twist)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but Dragonbane uses a deck of cards for initiative. Since there are no duplicates in the deck you never need to worry about ties. Dragonbane uses a mechanic where you redraw initiative each round (and their version of Fighter gets to chose whether or not to keep their card from the previous round, which is a nifty twist)
I have no problem at all with ties; and can't understand why WotC-era D&D is so opposed to them.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I don't think that the problem with wizards are cantrips, rituals, or neo-vancian casting. I think the problem is that full-casters were given these things but lost little to nothing in return for what they gained with cantrips, rituals, neo-vancian casting, and even ways to replenish their spell-slots.
Some possible solutions with the above in mind. I think that there needs to a clear vision and demarcation between the role of cantrips, spells, and rituals.

Rituals: A lot of utility spells should just become entirely rituals. These rituals could not be cast as spells. These rituals should have costs, including successful skill checks (e.g., Arcana/Nature/Religion), material components, assistance from others, or even the caster spending Hit Die.

I am hesitant to say that rituals can only be cast outside of combat because there is the trope of PCs stopping the NPC wizard's evil ritual; however, combat is very quick in D&D 5e anyway. So if a ritual is 10-30 minutes long, combat is likely long over by that point. So it is effectively out-of-combat as far as PCs are likely concerned, though it could certainly be interesting to have NPCs attempt to disrupt the ritual towards the middle or end.

Finally, I would also consider whether spells level 6 through 9 (or 10) should be rituals. This is to say that once you reach magic that is in the level 6+ range, you are dealing with potent magic that requires ritual magic unless you are a powerful entity (e.g., archfiends, gods, etc.). I probably would not explore this option until after testing the other changes.

Cantrips: Cantrips are mostly fine. The more powerful and/or weak ones are known and have been discussed. I don't think that having cantrips are a fundamental problem. Cantrips should not be as effective in damage as martials, but they should remove the need for the crossbow wizard.

Spells: Moving a lot of utility from spells to rituals would already, IMHO, alleviate some of the issue with spells. That said, I think that one of two things should be considered here. Maybe there should be less spell slots for fullcasters BUT each spell cast is potent. Or should spells be more frequent but less powerful in these areas? In which case, as some have suggested, nerfing spells themselves would work.

I would also rebalance spells across 10 levels of spells. Not 9 levels, but 10 levels. Also, let's call them "tiers" or "spheres" or anything else but not "spell levels," because that confuses things. A tier 10 spell would likely be a capstone ability for a level 20 fullcaster. You don't get Wish when you hit level 17. You would get it when you reach level 20, but you only get your choice of one tier 10 spell as your breakthrough spell.

Edit: I also agree with @Voadam that wizards and such should also get access to some healing spells. I don't think that this makes wizards more powerful. If anything it puts more pressure on them to potentially use their spells to heal. It also opens the door for "white necromancers" who also have healing spells.

Classes: One more thing that is also worth exploring is that maybe magical classes would not get cantrips, spells, and rituals but maybe a mix of these things. So maybe a warlock or hypothetical gish class, for example, would get cantrips and rituals but not spells. A wizard would get all of these things, but they are barred from certain schools of magic depending on their magical tradition. Maybe a sorcerer gets cantrips and spells but not rituals.
 
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Horwath

Legend
A house-rule I've used on the fly:
Light weapons give Advantage on initiative rolls, and Heavy weapons could impose Disadvantage.

Not sure how that would translate to spellcasting, though.
This is just prone to abuse,

everyone will go around with a dagger, and when their turn come, they will drop the dagger and "object interact" the Heavy weapon.
 



Reynard

Legend
Supporter
oh god no, D&D combat is already a slowfest, it does not need to be any slower.

players dont know what to do on their expected turn half of the time, this is pure chaos. Unless we all play champion fighters.
I don't find that per round initiative slows the game down appreciably.
 

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