I'm not concerned, and I'm the OP so
. I'm not going to police folks unless they come in shouting about how wizards don't need nerfed and we are all nincompoops for thinking so.
D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +
. I'm not going to police folks unless they come in shouting about how wizards don't need nerfed and we are all nincompoops for thinking so.
dave2008
Legend
No really, but he only gets those 2 spells, so it is a bit self curating. I might make some spells more difficult to learn. Now that he is more powerful than any other wizard, all lvl 6+ spells are ones he has "invented." So I let him pick any spell, but if it is in a field (school) that has little or no background with, the investment to learn that spell goes up, potentially a lot. So if an evocation wizard wants to start learn divinations spells it is more difficult than learning another evocation spell.
One thing that I think might be interesting (if we can avoid it turning into a bitter debate) is to talk about what precisely we want to nerf about the wizard and the real world, practical play reasons why.
I.e. what is the problem with the wizard in play you are trying to solve and how does your nerf accomplish that?
I.e. what is the problem with the wizard in play you are trying to solve and how does your nerf accomplish that?
dave2008
Legend
Ok, with @Reynard's permission I will discuss my plans for nerfing wizards (an most casters really). I have a few ideas I am exploring for our next campaign.
- Curated List of Spells: looking back at 4e, I would move many spells to rituals or scrolls. This could be spells I think are an issue, or just a whole class of spells (like teleportation type spells).
- Casting Time: I have thought that an easy way to balance the wizard is to make spells take longer to cast. This could have a similar effect to #1. So for each spell level add an action (or something like that). lvl 1= 1 action (A); lvl 2 = 1A + bonus action (BA); lvl 3 = 2A+1BA; lvl 4 = 2A+2BA; etc. - it is a bit clunky at the moment, but the idea is spells could take multiple rounds to cast, and...
- Interrupting Spells: If I go with option #2, I might say if a caster takes damage before a spell is cast, the spell fails (but you don't lose the slot). Maybe a concentration save, maybe not, maybe at a certain level you can save
- Revise cantrips. make them 0 level spells with a limited use (slots), or curate the list to only a few and move the rest to slots.
MuhVerisimilitude
Adventurer
I think the big thing is to understand that while some people might claim that the wizard is a specialist in spellcasting, what they really are is that they are the ultimate generalist because they can, as long as they have spells, basically adapt to anything.
The fix is to make casters more focused on one particular thing. You can have a blaster wizard who is mainly good at blasting, and a teleportation wizard who is mainly good at teleporting.
I'm a big fan of nerfing wizards and spells in general, but I think even with just narrowing down the spell selection of wizards you won't even need to nerf individual spells much.
Shardstone
Hero
Any nerf that makes the class less fun to play is a trash nerf. If you can't make something balanced without making it fun, you haven't spent enough time and energy trying to actually balance the class.
SO many nerfs in this thread are basically "Make the wizard less fun" strictly, that's it. In reality, you can't just purely nerf it; you need to balance it, which means nerf parts of it but introduce new ways to have fun with the class.
I suggest fewer spell slots and level-up spells can only be from your specialist school (though you can learn magic from any scroll or spellbook as per normal). Then, you add some Skill features to the wizard, because wizards are meant to be wise and intelligent and should have some Expertise in places beyond just Arcana as a result. Perhaps give them the ability to FoRK their profs into their allies' Ability checks (showing how wizards like Gandalf guide and improve others during their journeys). Allow wizards to create a signature spell over the course of their class and, upon entering T4, they have their own "Tasha's Horrendous Laughter" only its a unique spell wit htheir name on it.
In other words, make the Wizard more engaging with the fiction of "wizard" and reduce its reliance on being a spellcaster.
SO many nerfs in this thread are basically "Make the wizard less fun" strictly, that's it. In reality, you can't just purely nerf it; you need to balance it, which means nerf parts of it but introduce new ways to have fun with the class.
I suggest fewer spell slots and level-up spells can only be from your specialist school (though you can learn magic from any scroll or spellbook as per normal). Then, you add some Skill features to the wizard, because wizards are meant to be wise and intelligent and should have some Expertise in places beyond just Arcana as a result. Perhaps give them the ability to FoRK their profs into their allies' Ability checks (showing how wizards like Gandalf guide and improve others during their journeys). Allow wizards to create a signature spell over the course of their class and, upon entering T4, they have their own "Tasha's Horrendous Laughter" only its a unique spell wit htheir name on it.
In other words, make the Wizard more engaging with the fiction of "wizard" and reduce its reliance on being a spellcaster.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
In the interest of honoring this question, I will post in my nerfing suggestions and why I'd like to see them:
Most monsters seem to have just their stats as saves, and that makes them pretty easy targets for spells. That isn't necessarily all that bad since I don't necessarily want to start an arms race between PC save DCs and monster targets, but I think that many monsters are just too squishy in general. This gives them a bit more of a break that I think they deserve to make them a skosh more challenging and less subject to a quick, encounter-ending spell.
I think a bit more stylistic division between a wizard who mixes it up in close and from a safer casting distance would be nice. It would also serve to make wands more useful like they were in 1e - giving the ability for a wizard to get a spell off while in close combat rather than extend their non-combat utility like 3e did (and where the wizard got most out of control).
Otherwise, there are actually very few nerfs I'd be interested in applying to wizards. Having 2 in my high level game (well, one's a wizard, the other's actually a sorcerer - both currently 18th level), I'm not finding that other PCs (rogue, monk, fighter, ranger) fall behind them at all (with the possible exception of the ranger, but he is plagued by terrible luck no matter what dice he's rolling - physical or electronic - it's enough to make me believe in curses. When he hits things, he does good damage - but rolling above an 8 on his d20s really helps with that.).
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Oops, bad wording. It should have said "[put on a similar footing to] martials" instead of "non-martials".
Sorry for the confuse.
My main issue with wizards is their spell versatility, too. So my Earthdawn solution is based on adding a cost to that versatility, rather than outright eliminating it. If there is a rogue in the party, it should almost never be easier and/or safer to have the wizard cast knock, for example.
Kinematics
Hero
First I'd look at revising cantrips. Rather than scaling damage with levels, scale their secondary effects.
For example, Ray of Frost is 1d8 damage and reduces movement speed by 10, at 1st level. At 5th level, rather than the damage increasing to 2d8, have the movement speed reduction increase to 20, then 30 at level 11, and 40 at level 17. Turn your target into an immobile popsicle. It's still strong, but in a way that says "wizard" instead of "I'm a fighter that does cold damage instead of slashing damage".
Similar with Frostbite. The 1st level version gives the target disadvantage on its next attack. 5th level gives disadvantage on the next 2 attacks, 11th level on 3 attacks, and 17th level on 4 attacks.
Part of the problem with cantrips is that their secondary effects become pretty minor at high levels, so even if they seem like nice ideas at low levels, you're still encouraged to get the highest damage cantrips because damage is always useful, and they gain the most from level scaling. Thus, everyone wants Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast, which is a problem because those lean more heavily into Martial territory.
So what about cantrips that are nothing but damage? Rebuild them.
Eldritch Blast: Add a fear effect on the scaling. (Though maybe also add a Warlock invocation that can give it back its damage scaling. It's kind of special for that class, but not so much for other classes.)
Acid Splash: Reduce target's AC each time it's hit.
Fire Bolt: The increased heat causes your target to flinch and move away (5 feet at level 5, +5 feet per tier). This movement can trigger opportunity attacks.
Etc, etc. In other words, make the casters do things that are distinctly caster-like, not caster-flavored martial. The fighter is still down there beating stuff up with a sword.
Spells
On the spell side of things, I'd nerf casting time. Basically, a spell costs as many casting time units as its level. A caster can spend either an action or a bonus action (or both) to generate a casting time point. 1st and 2nd level spells can be cast on the same turn as the casting started, but 3rd levels spells take at least 2 turns, and 9th level spells will take 5 turns at best.
Though class features might give limited ways to reduce the cast times, especially for subclass themes. The sorcerer probably also has much lower casting times due to the very limited and specialized set of spells it has access to.
And if you fail a concentration check while casting (ie: if you're attacked), accumulated casting time points are lost (but not the spell slot). So if the wizard starts casting fireball, and the enemy orc notices, it might try to attack the wizard before he finishes. Casting anything but low level spells in melee is extremely fraught.
It also puts some interesting twists on Counterspell. Martials would have viable means of stopping spells, so you're not entirely reliant on that spell, while also making the spell identification action useful because of the time that longer spells take to cast (see: Xanathar's rules on spell identification vs counterspelling).
This helps mitigate the "snap my fingers and make it happen" type magic, which I never really liked for high-level magic. Low level magic can be done that way, but high level should require concentration and build-up. Imagine Megumin from Konosuba without her ritual chants for Explosion. It just feels cheap.
At the same time, it makes the party depend more on the non-casters while waiting for the huge nukes the wizard can pull down.
General
Aside from that, I agree with the idea of cutting down on universal spells, and putting more spells in subclasses. And also, this kind of assumes re-tuning the problematic spells, such as those that Treantmonk brings up in his videos.
For example, Ray of Frost is 1d8 damage and reduces movement speed by 10, at 1st level. At 5th level, rather than the damage increasing to 2d8, have the movement speed reduction increase to 20, then 30 at level 11, and 40 at level 17. Turn your target into an immobile popsicle. It's still strong, but in a way that says "wizard" instead of "I'm a fighter that does cold damage instead of slashing damage".
Similar with Frostbite. The 1st level version gives the target disadvantage on its next attack. 5th level gives disadvantage on the next 2 attacks, 11th level on 3 attacks, and 17th level on 4 attacks.
Part of the problem with cantrips is that their secondary effects become pretty minor at high levels, so even if they seem like nice ideas at low levels, you're still encouraged to get the highest damage cantrips because damage is always useful, and they gain the most from level scaling. Thus, everyone wants Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast, which is a problem because those lean more heavily into Martial territory.
So what about cantrips that are nothing but damage? Rebuild them.
Eldritch Blast: Add a fear effect on the scaling. (Though maybe also add a Warlock invocation that can give it back its damage scaling. It's kind of special for that class, but not so much for other classes.)
Acid Splash: Reduce target's AC each time it's hit.
Fire Bolt: The increased heat causes your target to flinch and move away (5 feet at level 5, +5 feet per tier). This movement can trigger opportunity attacks.
Etc, etc. In other words, make the casters do things that are distinctly caster-like, not caster-flavored martial. The fighter is still down there beating stuff up with a sword.
Spells
On the spell side of things, I'd nerf casting time. Basically, a spell costs as many casting time units as its level. A caster can spend either an action or a bonus action (or both) to generate a casting time point. 1st and 2nd level spells can be cast on the same turn as the casting started, but 3rd levels spells take at least 2 turns, and 9th level spells will take 5 turns at best.
Though class features might give limited ways to reduce the cast times, especially for subclass themes. The sorcerer probably also has much lower casting times due to the very limited and specialized set of spells it has access to.
And if you fail a concentration check while casting (ie: if you're attacked), accumulated casting time points are lost (but not the spell slot). So if the wizard starts casting fireball, and the enemy orc notices, it might try to attack the wizard before he finishes. Casting anything but low level spells in melee is extremely fraught.
It also puts some interesting twists on Counterspell. Martials would have viable means of stopping spells, so you're not entirely reliant on that spell, while also making the spell identification action useful because of the time that longer spells take to cast (see: Xanathar's rules on spell identification vs counterspelling).
This helps mitigate the "snap my fingers and make it happen" type magic, which I never really liked for high-level magic. Low level magic can be done that way, but high level should require concentration and build-up. Imagine Megumin from Konosuba without her ritual chants for Explosion. It just feels cheap.
At the same time, it makes the party depend more on the non-casters while waiting for the huge nukes the wizard can pull down.
General
Aside from that, I agree with the idea of cutting down on universal spells, and putting more spells in subclasses. And also, this kind of assumes re-tuning the problematic spells, such as those that Treantmonk brings up in his videos.
