D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They did though. PHB2. About eight months after PHB1.

It takes about eight months for gnomes to bring a corporation to its knees.

 

[Horwath]

My main issue with wizards is their spell versatility, too. So my Earthdawn solution is based on adding a cost to that versatility, rather than outright eliminating it. If there is a rogue in the party, it should almost never be easier and/or safer to have the wizard cast knock, for example.

out of all of examples, you pick the Lock spell that actually has a cost of using it.

1st: not a ritual. so it costs a spell slot, which if we comparing it to PC level can be low or high cost. Casting it at 3rd level is a high cost.


2nd: it gives a bang that can be heard from 300ft away, it's D&D equivalent of: No key, sure let's slap a handful of C4 at the door.

C4 being worse as it leaves clues after it was used, but better if there is multiple locks on the same door.


p.s. Leomund's tiny hut needs to be a non ritual or heavily modified.

 

[Mecheon]

When do you consider the "height of the wizard's power"?

3.5E, but regardless its had Vancian casting on every edition except 4E and 5E which, yeah, aren't the wizard's peak.

Regardless though, I remain completely against anything along the lines of removing cantrips. That isn't where the wizard's problem is and will just absolutely clash with modern players interpretation of how a wizard fights. The wizard's problem, as said up-thread, is that it has all the spells when it needs them and its sub-classes are flavourless. It needs a distinct flavour that isn't just "All the spells". I especially don't want to bring Vancian casting back because, it just doesn't fit folks mental image of how wizards do their stuff in this day and age. Folks want to be playing like its Skyrim, not like its a over 40 year boook series that's completely irrelevant in this day and age

Limiting the heck out of the wizard spell list is the easiest one. Force the fact a necromancer and a transmuter will use very different spells. That's the simplest way to get stuff back on track for them, along with heaping flavour on those sub-classes. I'd also add in an option to collect spells elsewhere, as loot. Make wizards suffer hoping good loot for them drops. Let them live as martials do. Worked in Skyrim, can work in D&D

Also anything that's wizard emulating another class needs a higher chance of failing than if that class just did its thing naturally. If its a 2/6 chance for a rogue to lockpick something, then it needs to be a 1/6 chance at the very least for the wizard.

 

[Aldarc]

I don't think that the problem with wizards are cantrips, rituals, or neo-vancian casting. I think the problem is that full-casters were given these things but lost little to nothing in return for what they gained with cantrips, rituals, neo-vancian casting, and even ways to replenish their spell-slots.

 

[CreamCloud0]

p.s. Leomund's tiny hut needs to be a non ritual or heavily modified.

personally yeah, i'd remove it's ritual status and bump it up to 4th level then basically make an inferior copy without any of the protective benefits(besides from weather) to go at 2nd level (overwriting rope trick? or that'd probably need it's own tweaks at least, smaller capacity or not being able to pull up the rope perhaps?) basically to the purpose of 'this is not protection from enemies, this is merely to provide a rest in uncomfortable enviornments'

 

[Reynard]

personally yeah, i'd remove it's ritual status and bump it up to 4th level then basically make an inferior copy without any of the protective benefits(besides from weather) to go at 2nd level (overwriting rope trick? or that'd probably need it's own tweaks at least, smaller capacity or not being able to pull up the rope perhaps?) basically to the purpose of 'this is not protection from enemies, this is merely to provide a rest in uncomfortable enviornments'

Tiny hut is a different problem: it doesn't make the wizard powerful, it lets the party bypass a part of the game. Just eliminate the spell.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Tiny hut is a different problem: it doesn't make the wizard powerful, it lets the party bypass a part of the game. Just eliminate the spell.

But that's precisely what makes most powerful wizard spells powerful. They are able to skip parts of the game. They are able to control how, when, where, and sometimes even whether things happen or don't happen.

Invisibility: skip stealth. Friends etc.: skip diplomacy. Teleport etc.: skip travel.

The Wizard, by specializing in so-called "problem solving," is most powerful when it is eliminating gameplay.

 

[Mephista]

Haven't really read the full thread, but ...

Fixing the spell list. The problem isn't spellcasters, or any indivindual spellcasting class, its the spells themselves that are the issue. Eliminating problematic spells (or spells that effectively replace entire other classes) is the first step. Without that step, no other step matters.

I mean... take a look at Fireball. Not the most powerful spell in the game, but its definitely a problem. Why? The devs made up guidelines for how much damage a third level spell should do... then promptly broke it by overtuning the spell. If you're going to make guidelines... stick to them. Just ignoring them just shows that you don't actually care about balance games in any way.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm jumping into this late & went looking for comments with vancian in them to kick off with. Since the thread explicitly wants "nerfs"... nerfs you shall have

• Return to Vanvcian casting.
  • Players who staryted with 4e's ADEU or 5e's neovancian prep seriously underestimate how significantly this single change alters the way casters play out at the table
• Boot them from the unified slot progression 5e introduced.
  • Wizard slots are wizard slots, they don't stack or combine with slots from sorcerer cleric artificer druid & so on...
  • Slots from EK & AT may or may not count as wizard slots depending on how those classes are designed.
• Many spells need to go back to having a set DC baked into the spell unless a feat magic item or sometimes★ caster level modifies it
  • Again this makes a huge change because a spell designed to cripple low level threats and hinder low levels when it might be most or all of the caster's slots & hinder trash level mooks at mid levels is going mildly inconvenience high level threats at higher levels.
    • Sticking with the "nerf" theme... On top of that this kind of change nerfs wizards by taking away what 5e gives them by default and allows them to potentially earn some of it back through magic items & specialization (feats/subclasses/etc).
• Reading a scroll provokes an opportunity attack, as does removing it from your backpack.
  • These two are important because with a return to Vancian casting the wizard is much more dependent on scrolls & wands to fill out their options even if it's expensive to be prepared for edge cases
• Many of the above nerfs wizards by making them more dependent on things like scrolls & wands. Take it a step further & take away arcane recovery. Give them scribe scroll to make them spend gold & time scribing permanent scrolls they need to carry around & potentially risk taking out in a fight instead
• Nerf wizard by going back to nonlinear carrying capacity scaling. When they only have 8 strength they have a lot more trouble carrying treasure like gold wands scrolls or food & water
• Nerf wizard by removing unlimited self scaling no cost at will cantrips & replace them with something more akin to the old reserve feats where the scaling was based on the reserved spell slot & cost was keeping a spell good slot filled & unused

Okay, real question:

For those who want to go back to True Vancian Casting: do you honestly feel this will be a serious check on the wizard's power considering it was present during the height of the wizard's power.... or do you just want it back because you liked playing that way?

Given how much of "the wizard's power" tends to rely on describing a scenario where a quantum spell prep list & quantum spellbook are in play.. yes obviously going further away from quantum by getting rid of neovancian's quantum slots. If you started with 4e or 5e I'm not sure how to convey just how muchgameplay is impacted by that shift 5e made when it decided to go from Vancian casting to neovancian prep but I'll try. That shift alone makes such an enormous difference that it was not uncommon or particularly unreasonable if a GM told players with a spellcaster (any spellcaster) that they were required to provide the GM with a list of what spells they had prepared & how many of each so they could tick them off as used during play


★I honestly can't remember if there were any spells that did something unusual like a DC determined by caster level

 

[Voadam]

If I were to nerf wizard cantrips, I would not eliminate them, that would just mean Doctor Strange carries a crossbow instead which is terrible default wizard flavor IMO.

I would probably just knock them down to roughly the effectiveness of a crossbow so that the effect was the same, but the flavor was still that casters use magic and not weapons as a default and there is not an obvious incentive for crossbowmen casters.