D&D 4E How would you re-envision Darksun with 4e?

[Najo]

This made me consider how suitable epic level play is for Dark Sun.

Although we know little about high-end play in 4E, the impression I have got from the previews is that epic levels will involve planar travel and battles, and accomplishments that can change entire worlds. I think this goes against the feel of Dark Sun - especially if an appropriate deed for epic level characters in 4E would be, for example, to reverse the condition of a dying planet...

I could easily see Dark Sun in 4E with a level cap of 20. Becoming an Athasian dragon or an avangion would be a paragon path rather than an epic destiny. After all, these creatures are in a way paragons of defiling and preserving, respectively.

Indeed, if I were to do Dark Sun, it would be a setting mostly geared towards the heroic tier for that savage Sword and Sorcery feel. Only the greatest leaders and most powerful magicians would be at the paragon tier, with the Sorcerer-Kings sitting at the very top of the pile as level 20 bosses (or whatever the term for a creature that challenges the entire party will be).

Dragons and Avangions are definately Epic Destinies, all of the lore in the old materials supports this. If anything, the paragon path is when the preserver/ defiler becomes a arch wizard with psionic powers and prepares themselves to unlock the secrets of magic fully. Then at 20th level, they delve into the transformation rituals.

 

[Najo]

I think they could do whatever they want. If most customers think the later stuff is stupid, they could certainly "re-launch" the setting from the original box set.

Batman: Begins did it. They took all those other movies and tossed them right out the window. I see no reason why they couldn't do the same with DS.
[/i]

I agree. I think you can actually rework the mistakes of the revised Dark Sun setting and make them cool if done right. Get rid of most of the psionic artifacts, tone down the surfer halflings, put the history of Athas into a more obscure place with only bits and pieces of the lore of the previous age being known. Dark Sun revised ruin much of the apocalyptic feel of the original one and it put some inappropiate things in there that hurt the dark fantasy feel too. Remove those things or rework them so their cool and your good.

 

[Sitara]

A Ds campaign book with a monster manual would be the best! Nothing else needed!

Screw eberron, give us Dark Sun!

 

[Elphilm]

I'm going to bring this point over from the other Dark Sun thread so as not to derail it.

Dark Sun makes sense if you include "Life Force" as a power source for Preservers/Defilers. Add in Sorcerer-Kings as a power source for Templars and Elements for the priests and you have 3 power sources to justify Dark Sun.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of there being a power source for everything and his dog. I think the idea of templars making warlock-style pacts with the Sorcerer-Kings as presented in this thread is a solid one. However, I would ditch the idea of elemental clerics - I suspect the only reason why Dark Sun even included clerics was the practical need for one in almost every party in 2E. With 4E offering possibilities for self-healing and Martial "healers", I would jettison all divine classes out of the setting. There are no gods influencing Athas and its priests don't hold any special magical powers either. I would do this mostly because the theme of the four classical elements never did anything for me, and it seems to be one of those fantasy cliches beaten to death these days. (Consequently, I'm not sure what to think of 4E's tendency to associate even more creatures with the classical elements. )

However, I could see druids or some kinds of shamans being in Dark Sun, particularly if the PHB2 will present druids with a Primal power source, as was speculated elsewhere.

 

[Najo]

A) I think that WOTC needs to becareful with overdoing their power sources. There is a point of overkill that can occur very quickly.

B) The clerics in dark sun do serve a purpose. 1) they show that once, long ago, there may have been gods. 2) they show that the elemental forces have an agenda. 3) Elemental clerics add to the primordial savagery of the setting.

Besides, Fire branded muls, water summoning/calling halflings, earth shaping/ bound dwarven priests, air whispering elves who use air wisps to scout, spy and travel the wastes are all cool.

 

[Klaus]

I'm going to bring this point over from the other Dark Sun thread so as not to derail it.


I'm not sure if I like the idea of there being a power source for everything and his dog. I think the idea of templars making warlock-style pacts with the Sorcerer-Kings as presented in this thread is a solid one. However, I would ditch the idea of elemental clerics - I suspect the only reason why Dark Sun even included clerics was the practical need for one in almost every party in 2E. With 4E offering possibilities for self-healing and Martial "healers", I would jettison all divine classes out of the setting. There are no gods influencing Athas and its priests don't hold any special magical powers either. I would do this mostly because the theme of the four classical elements never did anything for me, and it seems to be one of those fantasy cliches beaten to death these days. (Consequently, I'm not sure what to think of 4E's tendency to associate even more creatures with the classical elements. )

However, I could see druids or some kinds of shamans being in Dark Sun, particularly if the PHB2 will present druids with a Primal power source, as was speculated elsewhere.

Yes, I know, but if you can come up with power sources that can be ubiquitous to the setting and different from the main ones, you increase the likelyhood that they can fill a book with Dark Sun stuff.

 

[Sitara]

People are taking this 'power source' thing way out of line. Seriously, they are only meant to organize, categorize and describe certain class abilities thematically so they are easier to design and differentiate.

Basically, just think of them as sets of kEwl abiliTieZ. (i.e. fighter combat maneuvers)

Anyhow, the 4E druid is rapidly becoming much much different from the DarkSun druid. Heck, did the DarkSun druid even shapshift? (can't recall...though I do know they were much strongly tied to one particular elemental of their choice)

 

[Najo]

Ok, so to get back on track.

We have it fairly clear (from this thread and previous ones) that the original Dark Sun boxed set was the correct look and feel of the setting.

So, from that point, what do we keep and what do we get rid of from there? What do we add to the setting that it was missing? Hwow do we redevelop it's stories and points of interest through out the world? What worked and what didn't for getting new players and DMs into Darksun?

One thing that I noticed, is where to start and what to do was not intuitive. Dark Sun's deserts and the feeling of being overwhelmed by the bleak and hopeless world makes motivating and focusing heroes hard.

Darksun needs low level threats and slivers of hope. Things from the start that players can feel like they are breaking away from the toil of everyday life on Athas and working towards either a) answering the questions of the past b) working against the tyranny of the sorcerer kings c) unlocking the secrets of magic/ missing gods/ planes d) personal glories (which means there are people in these roles who live in comfort on Athas - i.e. merchant princes, star gladiators, army commanders, elemental High Priests, druids who are reawakening areas of the land with life, templars with luxuries and slaves attending them)

Anyrate, what is everyone's thoughts? What would you add to any of my points here?

 

[Flobby]

I was just about to start a thread like this, until I realized it there already was one...

Darksun was definitely my favorite D&D setting of all time. In fact the only one i ever bought books for. And I definitely agree that it should go back to the original box set to start over.

If they do do it, i hope they create more original classes that fit with the setting, rather than just making a few alterations to the core classes. And although Warlock as Templar sounds kind of cool, I do think that Templar is different enough to warrant a new class.

Someone mentioned above that clerics don't seem to fit in the setting. I agree and disagree. I think that the Druid and Cleric in the setting stepped on each other's feet, and hope for just a priest or shaman class who worship the elements.

Maybe something like this:
Templar
Shaman (with elemental and healing abilites)
Alternative Fighter (maybe more like a ranger? keeping in mind that they would have little use for armor)
Defiler (I liked the idea of have defiling as the default, preserving should be harder in a world such as this)
Gladiator
and then of course the psion and psychic warrior, or their 4e equivalents.

 

[rob626]

DS for 4ed

I have been running the DS Original Boxed Set as the start point for years. Always felt that although the supplement books (Veiled Alliance, Dune Traders, etc) were some of the strongest material ever written for any setting the PP and other additions were just garbage. Ran the campaigns straight from the original boxed material with all of the SK's still alive and scheming.

Uber NPC's: They died trying to kill off Kalak. Never cared for the Forgotten Realms super NPC syndrome, didn't want it in DS. The pc's should be the main characters of the story. What they do- or more often fail to do- is what shapes the planet.

Motivating the Characters: One campaign I have run successfully- The pc's find a strain of pest resistant, dry-environment loving, fast growth cycle grain in clay jars in the ruins of Yaramuke. You can see how this one event could change the world ... gradually. I just let a Druid share with them a vision of what COULD happen if they handled the discovery well.

Bandits, merchant house alliances/rivalries, SK's interested in keeping the status quo or in using the grain to feed their armies before setting out on conquest. Land reclamation, higher food values, greater survival rates, increased quality of life. Wars, political machinations, power balance shifts. By the time the characters have reached a high level they had, in fact, changed the world one way or another by who they entrusted with this one find.

Templars: I can see most Templarates being divided into "Action" and "Beureau" arms- the Warlocks with their pacts powering spells and the Leaders with the whole Authority thing.

Bards: An Athasian Bard is an semi-legitimized assassin/spy that uses entertainment as a cover. I'm sure that if people took class X with feat Y etc then there are multiple paths to what would be considered an Athasian Bard by the average peasant. Consider the Athasian Bards as people with similar abilities and mindset rather than a strictly defined class.

Races: I like the change to 4ed races. Maybe that half-giant won't be such a pain to dm with scaling powers!

Unarmed combat/grapple: The pc's spend a LOT of time in DS without weapons or in gladiator pits. Any streamlining of this beast is welcome! Ruling on a Thri-kreen grappling specialist .... I still have nightmares.

Equipment: Since 4ed places much less emphasis on equipment then the whole world of DS becomes much more attractive to the average player. DS has always been, IMO, about big themes (freedom vs oppression, morality vs power, greater good vs the individual) so stripping away the gear dependancy gets rid of some of the clutter and lets players focus on the characters.

Overall, it looks like 4ed is taking huge steps to make the game more about conflict resolution (combat and non-combat) as a vehicle to advance stories. I couldn't be more pleased!