D&D General How would you redo 4e?

[DEFCON 1]

But it would have actually hurt the game A LOT in at least 2 ways. First is like 5e where there are endless issues with classes having different refresh models. Second it greatly complicates class design, as the designer now has to get this right each time. Third it breaks the 'universal design language' of uniform slots, preventing all the various power swaps, ability to mix and match theme/pp/ed etc. The price is quite high actually.

I think you and I have differing opinions on just how high a price it is. Which is fine.

Me personally... I don't have an issue with differing refresh models because I don't expect, need, or want the game to be balanced on such a thin edge that you need the exact same refresh model for every class just to make sure that's what you are going to get. Too much balance results in things feeling too much the same in my opinion. And complicating class design is not something I care about, because that's on the designers themselves to work out. They know the game they are making and how much balance they feel is necessary... so I'm good with what they go with.

And as far as uniform slots? I don't think the game benefits from having things that modular that it's designed to mix and match everything. If it's going to be a class-based game... then keeping a baseline separation between abilities for a lot of classes (especially across power sources) is better in that regard I feel. And to be honest... it's not like 4E mixed and matched powers either (except in the lone case of the multiclass feats). Every class had their own set of powers and there wasn't any overlap even amongst power sources. Rather than like Fireball being a power available to all Arcane classes, it was just for the Wizard. So how much actual mixing and matching are we thinking we need?

But like I said... I actually don't concern myself that much at all with it, so if 2024E did indeed lean further into a standardized power suite a la AEDU... I wouldn't have any real issue with it (just like I don't have a problem with the return of "power sources" in the playtest). I just don't think the reasons people have given to go that way (most consistent refreshes leading to supposed better balance) to be all that important for the game. But your mileage may vary.

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah I was not particularly a fan of pathfinder's x rounds/day as a resource management pool for barbarians or bards. Very fiddly, particularly for the barbarian class that you might expect to be mechanically simple to play. For me 3e's x encounters per day was preferable but 3.5 UA's bloodied triggering rage was fantastic and a step above.

I don't remember if 4e's barbarian had that triggering and shift out of the book or if it was some house rule we worked up for our game for the guy playing a barbarian, but I know in the one game where a fellow PC was a barbarian there was a defender striker shift that happened on bloodied trigger raging. It led to him not minding/trying to get hit so that it would trigger his striker damage, which fit both his play style and what we wanted the mechanics to do for the concept.

I remember the Defender/Striker Barbarian, I played one, it was pretty neat.

The original Barbarian entered a Rage upon using a Daily Power; it would give them a powerful attack, and then passive benefits for the rest of the fight.

 

[Voidmoji]

The times has come for the age of daily resources to end.

Dude, every time 4e and dailies come up, or even in other editions, you rag on dailies and how you’d remove them from the game. On and on.

And I love you for it! Daily power in 4e didn’t quite work for me. It’s like my brain favored a time frame for renewable powers, per encounter, and going beyond that my brain said “Nah.”

I am fine with it for magic items, but for character abilities, I’m not enthused.

I’m one of the folks really champing at the bit for a real 4e SRD, to use for a 4e-inspired game I’m developing, and no player abilities are once per day.

 

[James Gasik]

Dude, every time 4e and dailies come up, or even in other editions, you rag on dailies and how you’d remove them from the game. On and on.

And I love you for it! Daily power in 4e didn’t quite work for me. It’s like my brain favored a time frame for renewable powers, per encounter, and going beyond that my brain said “Nah.”

I am fine with it for magic items, but for character abilities, I’m not enthused.

I’m one of the folks really champing at the bit for a real 4e SRD, to use for a 4e-inspired game I’m developing, and no player abilities are once per day.

As I said, I'm not really happy with daily abilities, but I can accept them. Even martial ones; why can you only use your Vorpal Tornado once per day?

Likely because it's a technique that requires the perfect setup for, the sort of thing that isn't going to happen in most battles. It's something you see in real world combat styles, a technique that only works when the stars align just so, and you have to lure an opponent into giving you that opening.

And canny foes might realize what you're doing and prevent you from pulling it off.

That's probably a little too much narrativium for some people, but if it makes the game easier to run, why not? I mean, we all accepted Vancian spellcasting, rather than pushed WotC to make a better magic system (say running off of spell points or a proper recharge mechanic).

We accept the rules of action movies, where you only run out of ammo when dramatically appropriate.

We certainly accept "hit points" as some vague arbitrary thing that lets people shrug off damage like an action hero does, without even being slowed down.

So it always strikes me as interesting when people are like "no, I can't accept a 1/day or 1/encounter sword move! That's one level of abstraction too far!"

 

[Voidmoji]

So it always strikes me as interesting when people are like "no, I can't accept a 1/day or 1/encounter sword move! That's one level of abstraction too far!"

That's the nature of RPGs, really. RPGs, from one to the next, have different forms of abstraction for different things. Some have abstract hit points, some have detailed wound systems. Some have highly narrative combat, some have highly detailed combat. Some have detailed action systems, some don't. AD&D 1e had backgrounds, but no skill system. It changed in 2e, then 3e.

Other than the This is My One RPG crowd, most people pick and choose the RPGs that work for them based on the variant aspects of their systems, and how they come together. How and what is abstracted is part of that, and different people like a different mix. RPG preferences are complex at their core, especially for gamers who read/research/play a lot of different games.

So, I don't find it odd that someone is fine with abstracted hit points and encounter powers, but dislikes daily powers. Just like I don't find it odd that some people prefer D&D 5e over 4e, or 3.5e, or OSE.

 

[heretic888]

The times has come for the age of daily resources to end.

My preference would be for "daily" powers to exist but to function like the Channel Divinity powers: you have a small pool of them, they refresh on a short rest, but you can only use one per encounter. Possibly have them cost a healing surge or an action point so players think twice about using them every single encounter.

 

[James Gasik]

Sometimes I wonder why it's necessary to limit a player's ability to do "cool fun things" in the first place. Would it get boring to see a Fighter perform "Sweet Sword Strike" every combat? Every turn?

Does it really matter if a Wizard can throw out Magic Missile turn after turn?

Does the game really need to be balanced around "only able to fight X combat encounters per game day"? What does that actually accomplish, when it's been my experience the real limit on how far a party can progress is based on running out of real-world time for the session!

I mean, there's already a base mechanic for endurance, called "hit points". You run out of those, the game is probably over. So it seems like telling players that they have a "gun" full of "bullets" that can allow them to use "maximum effort" and you have to figure out how to spread out that ammunition over the course of a "game day" causes more problems with adventure design, since now there's this constant struggle to make sure the players don't get a chance to use more than one bullet per X encounters.

 

[BigZebra]

Presentation isn't everything to everyone, but it sure looks nice when done right.
View attachment 277704

From where did you get this?

 

[Jacob Lewis]

From where did you get this?

I made it using Affinity Photo.

 

[BigZebra]

I made it using Affinity Photo.

That is really nice. Good job