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How woulda Chromatic Dragon react to the theft of its eggs?

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
The problem is that no one has seen the pattern yet. The Golds are in contact with the Lords of Waterdeep but no one knows why the Green went berzerk and the Golds are only now suspecting that maybe the Black's sudden appearance is somehow related to their plight. They have already faced off against him over Waterdeep, so they find it difficult to approach him and parley.

We're still in the beginning of the storyline, the group is level 9 (Pathfinder) and the stated aim of the campaign is to get to level 20. So, over the next 10 levels or so, more eggs need to go missing, some information must come back about the BBG and the pattern must emerge. The Black is skulking around Waterdeep and the group has found the corpse of his mate. I'm thinking of using that as a thread to sow it together somehow.

Looks like a good start so far. The golds, in human form, could recruit adventurers to do the investigative legwork, try to make peaceful contact with the black dragon. Plenty of hooks for the PCs there.
Dragons may not be the best at cooperation, but they're dragons and to know things. Blues and Reds, through whatever networks they possess, could be starting to catch wind of things going on and react with better defensive preparations. That might lead to more violent and attention-grabbing fights at their lairs and help expose the pattern. Or maybe PCs could hear about materials being taken/delivered/plundered from caravans near dragon lairs and expose a dragon preparing defenses against the egg thieves.
 

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Andor

First Post
Another possible link is Tiamat. She might notice a rash of chromatic dragon egg thefts and start sending dreams to her children, or just straight up have a chat with one of her priests. She may misunderstand the purpose of the ritual though, given that it's the FR she may suspect someone is trying to play create-your-own-god games and replace her. That would attract her full attention. OTOH if she thinks they are trying to make her an avatar she may be helping the BBG!

Your BBG should probably have access to a demi-plane BTW. Because otherwise some high level caster is going to use the Detect Plot spells Celebrim mentioned to find the eggs and wreck his day.

As for the initial reaction of a Dragon to the theft of their eggs? The Battle of 5 Armies is out today. That should give you some ideas.
 

seregil

First Post
Another possible link is Tiamat. She might notice a rash of chromatic dragon egg thefts and start sending dreams to her children, or just straight up have a chat with one of her priests. She may misunderstand the purpose of the ritual though, given that it's the FR she may suspect someone is trying to play create-your-own-god games and replace her. That would attract her full attention. OTOH if she thinks they are trying to make her an avatar she may be helping the BBG!

Your BBG should probably have access to a demi-plane BTW. Because otherwise some high level caster is going to use the Detect Plot spells Celebrim mentioned to find the eggs and wreck his day.

As for the initial reaction of a Dragon to the theft of their eggs? The Battle of 5 Armies is out today. That should give you some ideas.

I love the Tiamat idea. I'll have work on that.

As for the detection spell (Detect Plot LOL!), would hiding the eggs in a bag of holding or some sort of extra-dimensional space not hide them?...

Just checked...Discern Location cast to find an object can't be blocked by anything short of the direct intervention of a deity. It's an 8th level spell though....

Cue the cleric of Tiamat or an agent of the Cult of the Dragon (since they are already involved and might want to appease the Black dragon).

oh, I'm getting that evil tingle....time to brainstorm. Really glad I started this thread.
 

seregil

First Post
Looks like a good start so far. The golds, in human form, could recruit adventurers to do the investigative legwork, try to make peaceful contact with the black dragon. Plenty of hooks for the PCs there.
Dragons may not be the best at cooperation, but they're dragons and to know things. Blues and Reds, through whatever networks they possess, could be starting to catch wind of things going on and react with better defensive preparations. That might lead to more violent and attention-grabbing fights at their lairs and help expose the pattern. Or maybe PCs could hear about materials being taken/delivered/plundered from caravans near dragon lairs and expose a dragon preparing defenses against the egg thieves.

Hmmm....I like the 'make contact with the Black' idea.

At the very beginning of the campaign, on their way to their first job, the group saw the Gold Dragon and his mate fight the Black over Waterdeep before the Golds chased the Black away. (it's one of the reasons why the Lords are involved. The Golds might have saved Waterdeep from much destruction).

So, as far as titanic battles go, that battle set the scene. It also conveniently explains why the Golds need the group to act as intermediaries. That will test their mettle: find the Black dragon and talk to him. I'll need a camera to get a picture of the look on their face. However, I think the Gold will need to reveal himself so as to explain why the paladin doesn't just go himself. It will also add an extra dimension to the story.
 

Anthony Terry

First Post
I think your trying to be to logical about this and i refer you to the example given by umbram further up in this thread about ring/frogs but ill go a little further.

Say you lived in a world dominated by midgets, so say our world but you and a select group of about 100 are still 6-7ft and can fly but the rest of us are say 2-4ft and one of has snuck into your home whilst you where away, slew your wife and stole your child. Would you -

1. Seek logical clues to the whereabouts of your child
2. Look for others of your race facing the same issue
3. Start killing every midget in sight till one of them found your child?

I think the issue here is your overestimating the difference between us and dragons. Yes their fiercely intelligent and hold different values to a human, but im pretty sure in your scenario theyd just go crazy and start attacking every town in sight till some one brought them there dam child.

My theory is party in supported by more notable names in the return to caves of chaos. In witch this very scenario is used as the kobolds are housing an egg belonging to some bronze dragons, who (somehow) have tracked the egg to the area of the keep and i can assure you their not clever or subtle about the way they go about getting it back. Infact they fly straight into the middle of the keep and announce people are going to start dieing if their baby doesn't come back soon whether they stole it or not. Id like to think my mum would do the same for me, even tho ironically she probably wouldn't.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think the issue here is your overestimating the difference between us and dragons. Yes their fiercely intelligent and hold different values to a human, but im pretty sure in your scenario theyd just go crazy and start attacking every town in sight till some one brought them there dam child.

I had neglected to include the fact that we are talking about Waterdeep. Waterdeep is a large population center (like, 130,000 people!) in the Forgotten Realms. That means... many adventurer-quality characters of higher level. Dragons may not care about humans, but they know some of them can throw lightning bolts and all that. Large population centers are dangerous for a dragon, and they'd know it. Angry or not, the eggs are not helped if Mommy ends up dead.

The dragons would be apt to rip apart small villages nearby, but frontal assault on Waterdeep is for the terminally stupid.
 

seregil

First Post
I think your trying to be to logical about this and i refer you to the example given by umbram further up in this thread about ring/frogs but ill go a little further.

Say you lived in a world dominated by midgets, so say our world but you and a select group of about 100 are still 6-7ft and can fly but the rest of us are say 2-4ft and one of has snuck into your home whilst you where away, slew your wife and stole your child. Would you -

1. Seek logical clues to the whereabouts of your child
2. Look for others of your race facing the same issue
3. Start killing every midget in sight till one of them found your child?

I think the issue here is your overestimating the difference between us and dragons. Yes their fiercely intelligent and hold different values to a human, but im pretty sure in your scenario theyd just go crazy and start attacking every town in sight till some one brought them there dam child.

My theory is party in supported by more notable names in the return to caves of chaos. In witch this very scenario is used as the kobolds are housing an egg belonging to some bronze dragons, who (somehow) have tracked the egg to the area of the keep and i can assure you their not clever or subtle about the way they go about getting it back. Infact they fly straight into the middle of the keep and announce people are going to start dieing if their baby doesn't come back soon whether they stole it or not. Id like to think my mum would do the same for me, even tho ironically she probably wouldn't.

You're right to a certain extent. The Green dragon did just that: headed for the nearest town and wiped it out. The local authorities summoned adventurers and they eventually killed the Green.

The Black Dragon DID in fact fly to the nearest town and confront the human representative of the Cult of the Dragon. Why? Because had had reason to believe that only he knew where his lair was. He proceeded to thrash him, got the name of his superior in the COD in Waterdeep from him.

During the attack, he was being observed by the two Gold Dragons who had tracked their missing eggs to the same man but who had not, as yet, moved overtly. The Golds lose their lead on their eggs with the death of the COD contact and the Black has a name in Waterdeep. The Golds reveal themselves but are unable to converse with the Black because of his rage. They battle and, eventually, end up over Waterdeep. (see the scene described above.)

The Black is chased away by the Golds and calms down a bit. He moves his stuff to a new lair (treasure first), leaves a note swearing vengeance in his cave (burned into the wall with acid), says goodbye to his mate and begins his search. The Black is smart enough to understand that a frontal attack on Waterdeep will give nothing. He will die and, besides, how do you find one specific insect in an insect hive?

Here is where the different psychologies of dragons kick in. Logically, he could just put on a show, land at the gates of Waterdeep and wait for a delegation. He then tells them his story and demands that so-and-so be handed over NOW or suffer the consequences. Assuming they could find the man, the Lords would comply knowing full well that Waterdeep COULD win against the dragon but at great cost.

However, dragons don't think that way and especially evil ones. Parley with insects?!?! Never. He will find the individual, he will wring the information from him and he will find the thief. Once the thief is found, or his location determined with enough certainty to satisfy him, THEN he will wipe out whatever town or city harbours the thief, be it Waterdeep or something else. He will not, however, spend himself uselessly. It's the thief that must suffer, not his lackeys.

This is where the group comes in. If the Golds ask the group to speak with the Black dragon and the Golds tell the group to explain the spell known as Discern Location and promise to help the Black find the eggs, THEN the Black might be willing to listen. I plan on giving the group some sort of traditional dragon words for parley or 5-minute reprieve, kinda of a White flag for dragons, to ensure that the Black will wait before destroying them.

That way, they get to use a host of skills they don't usually use, the "diplomacy first" bard gets to have fun, the arrogant half-orc gets to be slapped down etc. Essentially, a great role-playing experience of talking to a pissed off dragon who desperately needs to kill something.

I also get to have a "lightning in a bottle" situation where two gold dragons have to cooperate with a desperate, grieving black dragon using the group as messengers. Meanwhile, the group is dodging assassins from a nopble they pissed off, the Shadow Thieves who want an artifact they have ( a horned ring) and their own day-to-day preoccupations. Fun all around.
 

Anthony Terry

First Post
I really like where your going with this and yes it would appear I was greatly under appreciating the size of warterdeep, even though i have read allot about it. I find and therefore have played very little of it, forgotten realms has a pretty awful tendency to have far too many high level people for my liking. Why does every bartender have to be a 5th level wizzard? things like that stick in my jaw a bit.


However i still think your overestimating their ability to defend against a dragon attack. Godzilla movie for example, in modern day world where if we wanted to we could nuke godzilla, still manages to destroy most of new york and do you know why? Just because waterdeep has a wizzard able of casting lightning bolt, or even 20 it does not mean they will be willing to cast things like that in the middle of the city? The only obvious difference here being that waterdeep clearly has prior knowledge of dragons and especially with the recent battle has probably taken some steps to plan a defence but i still feel I may be underestimating the dragons reluctance to risk his own life, but your certainly overestimating the risk too it (imo)


In saying that i think i prefer your way of doing things, for the obvious story and pcs actually getting to be the focal point but everything i have ever read suggests that dragons are about as arrogant as it gets and where i may agree a frontal assault of waterdeep would be a bit much the dragon could be, attacking all their trade caravans, killing livestock (the city realisticly cant be self sufficient must by outlying towns)


To summarise, just because he cant attack waterdeep per-say does not mean when he runs out of leads he wont just be completely unproductive, dragons, especially black/red from what ive read any ways are highly violent, arrogant and petty. I think he'd want to make just about everyone suffer as much as he is for the soul reason of feeling better.


Also by lore as i understand it your white flag for dragon idea would only really work if accompanied by a gold dragon, the sight of a lesser race using something apparently only known to dragons would just about guarantee their death i think.
 

seregil

First Post
Well, I agree about the FR power creep. I play 1E Old Grey Box FR, so the power level is quite low compared to the uber magic, wizard-in-every-bar that came later.

That being said, Waterdeep has a least one iron golem for defence, has Khelben Arunsun in the coty and is a member of a sub-continent spanning alliance (The Lord's Alliance) AND, more importantly to the Black Dragon, TWO Gold Dragons have proven willing to fight him over it. So those odds aren't very good.

Mind you, I expect 10,000 dead in the event of an attack by the Black before he's beaten off. It's the height of Winter at the moment and large scale destruction will mean many deaths from exposure after the battle and possible starvation if the granaries are hit.

An ancient Black dragon is CR 16. Mine's a mature adult, a CR 12. For a city of 100,000 with at least one high level mage, they should win.
 

Celebrim

Legend
An ancient Black dragon is CR 16. Mine's a mature adult, a CR 12. For a city of 100,000 with at least one high level mage, they should win.

Forget 5th level wizards. I know one published bartender in Waterdeep is an 18th level fighter.

I think you are vastly underestimating the canonical strength of the Waterdeep population. A CR 12 monster probably could be taken down by an average street mob in Waterdeep. Khelben Arunsun is a 27th level character, Laeral Silverhand is a 30th level character, and there are something like 200 named published characters in Waterdeep above 10th level - to say nothing of the usual inflated demographics of a city of 100,000 in FR. I don't know nearly as much about the fighting strength of Waterdeep as opposed to the nations around the Sea of Fallen Stars, but it isn't unusual for the city states around the Sea of Fallen stars to be able to field thousands of 4th level or higher fighters. A couple of cities in Sembia had hundreds of 6th level cavalry, and I don't need to go into the Purple Dragons. I scarcely recall a single city around the Sea of Fallen Stars that didn't have at least one 20th level fighter commanding its garrison. I'd be moderately surprised if Waterdeep was much different, and if it is, it's only because its population is said to include hundreds of retired adventurers.
 

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