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How woulda Chromatic Dragon react to the theft of its eggs?

seregil

First Post
I just checked my main source of information for my campaign FR1:Waterdeep and the North. Khelben is listed as level 26, which surprised me as I thought that he was around 17. I must be mixing him up with Piergeiron, who is level 14. Laeral is 24th level as per FR5, still higher than I expected.

However, the level drop off quickly after that. Maskar Wands is 21st level and then it's down to the mid-teens. Still powerful though. I used to play FR back in 2e. I had dozens of books for FR and then I just gave up. Every new book upped the ante and made Monty Haul campaigns look banal in comparison.

I played Kingdoms of Kalamar for years, just to have a clean, sober campaign setting that wasn't a demi-gods playing ground. With Pathfinder, I went back to Fr but only using the Old Grey Box, FR1 and FR5. Anything else is off limits.

No mythals, no Chosen, no Seven Sisters and Elminster is just some wizard. A level 26 wizard, but JUST a wizard.

However, I am even more convinced that Waterdeep could stand up to the Black dragon and the Dragon would know, thus his cautious approach.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
I played Kingdoms of Kalamar for years, just to have a clean, sober campaign setting that wasn't a demi-gods playing ground. With Pathfinder, I went back to Fr but only using the Old Grey Box, FR1 and FR5. Anything else is off limits.

I've only been a player in FR; I've never ran it as a DM.

Generally speaking, I'm pretty happy with the demographics of the Forgotten Realms if you divide everyone's levels in half.

My players just left Talernga, the Gem of the Storm Coast, the Broach of the Free Cities, Talernga the Many-Terraced, City of Towers and Learning and one of the six or so greatest cities on all of Korrel. It's comparable in size to Waterdeep.

The highest level NPCs in the city, other than the BBEG and his allies, that I won't list to avoid spoilers:

His Majesty the Hinga, Alberic Saabhac II, King over Talergna: Human Fighter 2/Expert 5
His High Majesty the Hurin, Farmanus Karahal IV, King over Talernga: Human Fighter 6/Explorer 2
Lord High Warden Lemankath, Elf 10th level Hunter
The Honorable Lord Edhelhard, Mayor of the Palace: Elf Expert 9/Wizard 6
His Grace Andus Brocmain, Lord Polemark of Talernga: Human Fighter 10
Professor Whulfstan, Chair of the College of Metaphysics, University of Talernga: Human Wizard 1/Explorer 1/Expert 6
Matriarch Elvessa Demulan, High Priestess of Aymara: Human Cleric 14
Mother Ileen Detorres, High Priestess of Jord: Human Brute 1/Cleric 7
Reverend Mother Tabitha Ivar, High Priestess of Showna: Human Cleric 9

I wouldn't imagine the unnamed personages above 7th level amount to much more than that. The situation is even lower powered than the above appears. For example, Tabitha Ivar is a woman in her 70's with no physical scores (STR, DEX, CON) above a 5, and who hobbles about on canes and is carefully carried down stairs by her servants. Except for the Hurin, none of the above have a effective challenge rating even as high as their level.

What's my point? I detest the FR. It's an entire setting meant to deprotagonize the PC's. You complain that it only got worse the longer it went, but the seeds of it were there right from the start. It reminds me most of Ultima IV, where everyone was supposedly under attack by orcs and other monsters, except that to deter PC's from attacking townsfolk, merchants and city guards and other average people were so powerful they should have made short work of most of the games dungeons and could have gone toe to toe with almost any monster in the game. Certainly by the time you got where you could have, if you wanted to, ransacked a town, you could beat the game. In the FR, there is nothing you can do as a PC below 5th level that couldn't be more effectively and reasonably done by NPCs. The most rational thing for a player below 5th level to do when encountering any difficulty is run to the 'grownups' for help. After all, the merchant, his wife, the bartender, the bouncer, and the stable boy are probably higher level than you are.

The last TSR product I ever bought was "Haunted Halls of Evenstar". It was so bad, I quit D&D and bought the GURPS core book.
 
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seregil

First Post
Well, I do like FR as originally created. In the FR1 sourcebook, there are maybe 50 people described with basic stats. Levels go from 27 to 21 to 17(?) then down quickly. 90 percent of the people are below level 10. In my world, what makes a person dangerous is their 'network'. Khelben is certainly powerful but, as an individual, a large mob of peasants can probably kill him or force him to retreat. However, as a member of the Lords, the Harpers and with his friends, he is far more dangerous and his level matters far less.

However, you have to keep in mind that FR1 was written for 1E, so there was no level limits. Khelben being level 27 in 1E, to me, makes him level 18 in Pathfinder. Maybe 19. Also interesting to note that he is HIGHER level than Elminster.

Besides, I play the movers and shakers as behind the scenes guys. While the group has met Khelben and Piergeiron, in was in the context of an emergency and the two were clearly dealing with important matters and the group was in and out in minutes.

Using just the Grey Box, FR1 and FR5 keeps things reasonable. The reason I see with FR being so powerful NPC heavy was to keep players from just taking over, but as I said above, GROUPS are more powerful than any individual. This counters the players personal power very quickly.

That also goes for dragons. The dragon is personally powerful, the city of Waterdeep is more powerful.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
What's my point? I detest the FR. It's an entire setting meant to deprotagonize the PC's.

RPGs are darned if they do, and darned if they don't. In the real world, the amount of physical prowess available to people is pretty small. Not so in most RPGs, and this presents problems.

In a world with lots of high-level characters, you de-protagonize the PCs if they behave rationally.

In a world with lots of threats to the land, if you don't have the high-level characters, the world should be beaten by the threats! Moreover, if you don't have an explicit mechanic or setting element that *prevents* NPCs from rising in level, it is difficult to understand how, in a threat-filled world, those NPCs don't arise. Kind of like, say, the permanent Continual Light spell you get in some editions - how do you *not* end up with entire cities lit by the things?

In a world with very few threats to the land you need to come up with a reason the PCs involved in *every* one?

However you go, it challenges credibility. At some point, you need to accept that you are playing a game, not simulating a planet, wave your hands and and say, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
 

Celebrim

Legend
In a world with lots of threats to the land, if you don't have the high-level characters, the world should be beaten by the threats!

The real world I would argue is a situation with both lots of threats and no high level characters. I won't get into philosophy or theology here regarding the observable state of the world, but the point is that the game world could presumably emulate the state of a world in conflict by doing the thing you say that it can't.

Moreover, if you don't have an explicit mechanic or setting element that *prevents* NPCs from rising in level, it is difficult to understand how, in a threat-filled world, those NPCs don't arise.

Those NPC's do occasionally arise, but surviving the process of rising in levels - which ever 'team' you play for - is not easy. Heroes occasionally arise as well. The NPC bad guy is an 18th level Wizard, the first to rise to that level in this part of the world in 4 generations. Yet, the NPC bad guy knows that party probably could beat him down if they caught him by surprise. Keep in mind he doesn't know the level of the party. He does know Sir Gareth took a finger of death and a quickened lightening bolt to the chest and DID NOT DIE - which scared the heck out of him as it was entirely outside his experience (and though he doesn't know it, it scared Gareth at least as much, as in "OMG am I in over my head"). He's incredibly powerful, far beyond the player's current imaginations, but I know and he's knows he's not invincible by any means, nor are the PCs - after all, I've had 9 deaths in the campaign so far. Talernga as a nation state is a half-million people strong. While as a single character he's capable of largely thwarting one of the world's super-powers, he can't face such a power entirely without risk. The PC's are just one of many threats he's currently facing. Talernga hasn't survived for this long for lack of resources. Thus the BBEG, despite being really powerful, has to hide. He can't hunt his enemies and does so, but the enemies can also hunt him. The PC's have seen what happens to his organization when it gets cornered by its enemies - 20 or so mid-level clerics, a half-dozen mid-level wizards, a couple of dozen mid-level knights, a couple of dozen mid-level elf rangers, and the PC's make a pretty overwhelming fighting force. The organizations CR 14 defenses pretty much melted. EL 14 encounters may be deadly to 5th level characters, but 60 or so such characters if well organized and backed by the wealth of a nation state do quite quickly carve through them.

But even so, as he's told the PC's, "I'm not scared of you. It's the bloody gods that you serve that scare me."

Kind of like, say, the permanent Continual Light spell you get in some editions - how do you *not* end up with entire cities lit by the things?

One of the things Talernga is famous for is that much of the city is actually lit up by magical lanterns of multicolored glass. When the PC's investigated the dungeons, under Talernga, they often found ancient rooms lit by them 1000's of years ago. There is an entire side quest around the construction and maintenance of these lamps the PC's never stumbled upon. Large and prosperous cities do in fact have street lamps. That's something FR actually gets right, for the record.

So yes, you either integrate the magic of your world into your world, or else you have a simulation problem. But I don't accept that very high degrees of simulation credibility is a problem you just have to accept. It's possible for a simulation to be credible enough that even a picky person can agree to suspend disbelief.

In a world with very few threats to the land you need to come up with a reason the PCs involved in *every* one?

No. When I initially brain stormed the starting location of the PC's, I came up with a list of about 20 threats the land was currently facing. The PC's were far from involved in every one. They probably only addressed 5, and have at this point only really pursued strongly 1 (my primary threat, the most existential one). Presumably other NPCs are addressing the other threats - indeed they've witnessed some of this when they went to other NPC's seeking aid. "I'll help as much as I can. I'd love to help you more, but as you can see, I'm tied up with other problems." When the PC's moved to Talernga, there were again 20 some odd other threats the land was facing, from turf wars between rival drug gangs, to an outbreak of Republican Idealist seeking government reform and elimination of the monarchy, to a genocidal plot against the elves, goblin raids on border towns, to a sinister serial killer. Some of the threats were allies of the BBEG and so got taken down by the PC's in pursuit of him. But others were entirely tangential are presumably left for other NPCs (or PCs in a different campaign) to address. Some threats the PCs would like to face, like the discovery that one of the PCs relatives were lycanthropes, the PC's must put on a back burner and put a 'someone else's problem' field around, in order to pursue the BBEG whom they currently believe is a risk to the whole world.

The point is that since the world contains millions of people, it also almost perforce - not even examining the inhuman monsters - contains thousands upon thousands of threats. But it also most certainly contains thousands upon thousands of people defending themselves against the threats. The PC's pick one path through the sand box of threats. Presumably other people pick others and have varying degrees of success.

However you go, it challenges credibility. At some point, you need to accept that you are playing a game, not simulating a planet, wave your hands and and say, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

Even granting this is true, and admitting that I can't simulate a planet even if I wanted to, this isn't a black and white sort of thing. It's not, "Because you can't be perfect, then you have no choice but to be ridiculous."
 

seregil

First Post
We're getting off track. :)


Suffice to say that FR 1E isn't as bad as what followed and that it suits my needs for the moment.

More importantly, I've gotten some good ideas out of this discussion and I intend to start entering into Realm Works asap.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The real world I would argue is a situation with both lots of threats and no high level characters.

Yep. But since the real world is basically like playing E6, the threats are also capped. It is not so for most RPGs.

Those NPC's do occasionally arise, but surviving the process of rising in levels - which ever 'team' you play for - is not easy.

Barring a setting conceit to the contrary, anything PCs can do, the NPCs should also be able to do. If the PCs are not special in some way, then the NPCs should die at roughly the same rate the PCs do. Do you run a game so lethal that PCs rarely survive over 5th level? If not, that's where you're effectively sweeping the issue under the rug - allowing the PCs to survive, but assuming most of the NPCs do not.

The point is that since the world contains millions of people, it also almost perforce - not even examining the inhuman monsters - contains thousands upon thousands of threats. But it also most certainly contains thousands upon thousands of people defending themselves against the threats. The PC's pick one path through the sand box of threats. Presumably other people pick others and have varying degrees of success.

Yes. But, as above - if the PCs can survive, so can the NPCs. And certainly, it isn't like threats only *just* started popping up, right? There have been loads of threats for centuries. So in the past of the world there have been people doing the same things the PCs do. And so, those people should have risen in level. If there are thousands of threats, all the time, there then are and have been thousands and thousands of people earning XP working against those threats.

Where are they?

It's not, "Because you can't be perfect, then you have no choice but to be ridiculous."

Well, actually, it kind of is. If you aren't playing E6 or the like, the personal power levels characters and creatures can reach in RPGs is vastly above that attainable in the real world, and the methods of gaining that power (XP awards) does not exist in the real world. The situation in the fantasy world is thus inherently ridiculous, from the real-world point of view.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Barring a setting conceit to the contrary, anything PCs can do, the NPCs should also be able to do. If the PCs are not special in some way, then the NPCs should die at roughly the same rate the PCs do.

The conceit is that the PC's are particularly unusual in several regards, through granted there is nothing that prevents NPCs from success on their own.

First, PC's are built on a 32 point buy. Average NPCs really are around 15 points, and my average is NOT actually 'the lowest stats you'll ever see on any NPC ever' or 'only the bottom 1% of NPCs'. Important NPCs are generally built with 21 points. Even as much as the elite array is really rare.
Second, the PC's are 'advantaged' characters that start with a bonus trait. The majority of NPCs aren't advantage, though obviously, someone like the Crown Prince has the equivalent of considerable starting advantages in life - more even than the PCs had.
Third, PC's are 'destined' characters that start with destiny points that reflect unusual luck, divine favor, special destiny, or other supernatural connection to the world. Probably not 1 in 10,000 NPCs is also destined.
Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, the 'story' begins in a situation where a number of these '1 in a million' type individuals happen to have converged at the same time (by chance or design of the gods).

Almost no NPC in my game world is so advantaged. Even the elite stat array is rare, and only the BBEG in my campaign of all the other NPCs thus far encountered has a 32 point buy and I strongly avoid the trope seen so often in 1e of NPCs with vastly better stats than would be available to PCs. Indeed, the BBEG is one of only a handful of NPCs that they've met that also has destiny points. In short, the PC's, while still being basically the same sort of thing that NPCs are and playing by the same rules, have a significant measurable advantage over all or most of them. If they didn't have these advantages, they almost certainly couldn't be the sort of heroes that they are and taking and often surviving the sort of trials and challenges that they face.

Do you run a game so lethal that PCs rarely survive over 5th level? If not, that's where you're effectively sweeping the issue under the rug - allowing the PCs to survive, but assuming most of the NPCs do not.

Even with all these advantages, the game is sufficiently lethal that hardly any PC's have survived to 7th level. Most of the PC's have died, much less the NPCs. Partly that's the inexperience of my players - all but one of the deaths have occurred as a result of the player's splitting the party. The game isn't designed to be as lethal as it has been. The game is designed to create the story of a group of exceptional heroes who will make an indelible mark on history and later be remembered in song. Obviously, the PC's aren't the only ones to have done so - the PC's have heard songs about past glories as well and come across the evidence of mighty past deeds. But the PC's are a bit special.

Yes. But, as above - if the PCs can survive, so can the NPCs. And certainly, it isn't like threats only *just* started popping up, right? There have been loads of threats for centuries. So in the past of the world there have been people doing the same things the PCs do. And so, those people should have risen in level. If there are thousands of threats, all the time, there then are and have been thousands and thousands of people earning XP working against those threats. Where are they?

All over the place. I listed some examples of NPCs that 'made good' in an earlier post. It's not as if I suggested that there are no higher level NPC's. But as the level increases, they become increasingly and exponentially rarer. Part of that is that effective challenges become rarer. Part of that is the more challenges they face, the more likely it is that they died. Part of that is that most people aren't actively seeking out difficult challenges and 'retire' from a life of danger more or less as soon as they are able. Part of that is that most people become old some time around the time they become experienced. There have indeed been NPCs of 20th level or higher in the world. At any time, there might be a half-dozen such NPCs. Over the course of 5000 years, there have been a considerable number of them.

I guarantee the PCs arc will largely emulate the arc of NPCs by past experience. Those that obtain high level will tend to have the same pressures acting on them. Most of my campaigns wind down before 15th level with PC's in a position of leadership, wealth and relative security and players that are very hesitant to take unnecessary risks with their now treasured and largely irreplaceable character.

Well, actually, it kind of is. If you aren't playing E6 or the like, the personal power levels characters and creatures can reach in RPGs is vastly above that attainable in the real world, and the methods of gaining that power (XP awards) does not exist in the real world. The situation in the fantasy world is thus inherently ridiculous, from the real-world point of view.

From the real world point of view I suppose, but it's not necessary for a fantasy world to be fully consistent with the real world - if it was, it wouldn't be fantasy. All that is necessary is for a fantasy world to be consistent with itself. FR fails to be consistent with itself for the core 'zero to hero' narrative that is iconic D&D. This is easily demonstrated with concrete examples from published FR modules. The stories set in FR always have as their central protagonists NPCs that do the heavy lifting and reap the main rewards, while even the greatest PC heroes are treated shabbily and as of little account. The FR are always about the NPCs who possess advantages and abilities the PCs can never match. None of the stories set in the FR necessarily make sense unless you assume all the high level characters in the game are jerks that are also not self-interested and also stupid despite their high stated intelligence.

For example, Gygaxian demographics provided that humans and orcs or humans and hobgoblins presented a reasonable challenge for each other, so that human communities with their 0 level fighters and 1st level fighter leaders were reasonably threatened by 1HD and 1+1 HD invaders. But when FR came out, one of the problems my play group at the time spotted initially is that FR military demographics assumed common soldiery were as potent as the most elite militaries of other settings and yet initially the demographics around orcs or hobgoblins didn't change and the narratives around threats of demi-human invasion didn't change despite. The immediate question this raised for us was, "How is that the ugly demi-humans aren't extinct?" Even with Gygaxian demographics, the number of orc tribes a 10th level party could simultaneously face and eliminate made the question of whether orcs should be a real threat somewhat interesting. With FR realms demographics, the whole thing got ridiculous. Those Caves of Chaos were barely a threat to the Keep on the Borderlands as it was. In the FR, why doesn't the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker just clean it out and take the gold for themselves considering how little it would trouble them? The normal D&D path from zero to hero doesn't seem to be there if you start at 1st level. Whatever opportunities that 1st level characters have seem highly contrived given that the bountiful wealth they reap could be reaped far easier and at far less cost by any half-dozen NPCs. To jump into the story requires starting at 3rd or 5th level so that at least you aren't a below average individual and are of some use, and even then if you stick to the canon, the best this provides for you is the opportunity to have a good vantage point on the awesome cut scenes. And I mean that later point literally, as its not unusual for a FR module - even and especially the early ones - to have the direction to the DM, "The PCs can do nothing to change the outcome of this scene."
 
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seregil

First Post
Ok, if were going to debate the merits of the various power levels as pertaining to FR, let's gets some facts. What are the NPC presented in the original FR boxed set. The boxed set included two books, DM's Sourcebook of the Realms and the Cyclopedia of the Realms. Let's Look at all NPCs level 11+.

Cyclopedia of the Realms:
  • Adventuring Companies: 13 companies, Laeral is mentionned as level 24, one F11 and one M13 (retired). Most are 5th or 6th.
  • Arabel: Gondegal is said to be level 20. Myrmeem Lhal is level 12.
  • Baldurs Gate: The Dukes are levels 20, 17,16 and 20.
  • Battledale: F12
  • Beregost: M16, C16
  • Citadel of the Raven: M12
  • Darkhold: M12
  • Eltural: Cav12
  • Forgotten Forest: D16
  • Greycloak Hills: F7/M11
  • High Dale: R12
  • High Horn Cav15
  • Hluthvar: C13
  • Impiltur: F15
  • Iriabor: C12
  • Knights of the north, advenuring band, M12, M11
  • Lantan: C24
  • Mercenary Companies: 6 companies, Flaming Fist not detailed, F12, F11, F11
  • Mintarn : F15, M12
  • Mulmaster: F18
  • Procampur: Cav11
  • Suzail: King Azoun Cav20, W15, F15
  • Voonlar: C12
  • Zhentil Keep: C13

DM's Sourcebook of the Realms (list of NPCs, I will give summary only, some duplication of the the other book, I have skipped them when I could)
  • D16
  • W11
  • R11
  • F14
  • W26 (Elminster)
  • W11
  • C15
  • F12
  • W26+ (Khelben)
  • W11
  • w16
  • w11
  • w20
  • Pal14
  • w12
  • w12
  • w27 (Symbul)
  • w22 Sylune

That's it. 55 NPCs above level 10, 5 are above level 20. Also important is that, at this point, there are no special abilities for NPCs (e.g. The Chosen). Not too bad for an entire continent of several millions people. Where I agree it's abusive is the "patrols of 40 men, all level 2 fighters or better". That being said, an orc horde or two can, and has, destroyed everything in its path.

The power level goes up again in FR1 and far less so in FR5. However, we are far from the stableboy kicking in the teeth of an orc raider while the butcher holds off 20 hobgoblins.

Is the power level higher than "vanilla" DND 1e? Yes. Is it higher than Greyhawk? Not sure, but if it is, not by much. Greyhawk had guys like Iuz running around.

So, sorry, FR wasn't that bad in the beginning. The power creep came later as each subsequent product added more powers, spells, abilities to the NPCs. In its original form, the NPCs followed the same rules as the PCs. All in all, a power level I can live with.
 
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