HP Thresholds

[GX.Sigma]

Maybe I missed the discussion on this at the time, but I haven't seen any HP threshold threads. How do you guys feel about this mechanic?

In the old days, we (and by "we" I mean "people who existed on planet Earth at that time, which does not include me") had HD thresholds for lots of spells--sleep only being able to affect d2-1 creatures of HD 4+1 to 4+4, and other nonsense like that. We also had other spells, such as symbol, which operated on HP thresholds.

The 4th Edition solution was to have those spells just not exist at all. That worked okay.

Now with 5e, the plan is to have all spells like that work on HP thresholds. In the playtest rules, it's not consistent at all. Some spells have the target auto-hit the save if it's above the threshold (sleep), some have the target auto-miss the save if it's below the threshold (charm, command), some have reduced effects on creatures above the threshold (hold).

How has it worked in playtesting? Good? Bad? Did it lead to metagame decision making?

 

[Oni]

In effect it's not much different than a HD threshold, as you said, so I don't think it's all that different other than some creatures that might not have been affected in the past would be able to be affected now if their HP becomes low enough (though this is essentially a huge gamble unless, their are some clear guidelines as to when/if/how this information should pass to the players). I will say it was a bit of a flat moment for me in the playtest when the players immediately realized they were more or less immune to sleep and their enemies weren't, they were very cavalier about dropping it on themselves.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There is an important break from the past: now most every spell is potentially highly useful against (almost) any opponent, even low level spells. The big guys can be beaten down.

Instead of being 100% or 0% useful, we have spells like Sleep that are 100% useful against these weak targets, useful in the second 50% of the fight against those tougher targets, and good enough for the finishing strike against really tough foes down to their last 20% of HP. That last one does not sound great, but it only has to be better than an At Will to be an option worth considering.

 

[Oni]

I almost feel like there should be an or involved. For instance. Such and such a spell works against creatures with 25 or less, or creatures that are bloodied, or this spell only work against creatures with 10 or less HP, or creatures that are in critical condition (less than 10 or 20%). I think this would give a little more tactical leeway.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I will say it was a bit of a flat moment for me in the playtest when the players immediately realized they were more or less immune to sleep and their enemies weren't, they were very cavalier about dropping it on themselves.

This was not as much of an issue for our group but perhaps rather than a hard threshold [10hp], you could have a randomly determined threshold [3d6hp] for a little more excitement and less meta-combo.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Li Shenron]

I like the concept of HP thresholds making low-level spells useful on high-level foes but only when they're beaten down first. I really didn't like having spells becoming useless at a certain level, so this is much better than an HD threshold. But I have to see how it really works in practice.

 

[MarkB]

The biggest stumbling block to this mechanic is the question of whether the players know when these thresholds have been reached. That's where 4e's Bloodied mechanic was more useful.

I think it might be reasonable enough to allow a spellcaster who is preparing to cast one of these spells to 'feel' the extent to which each target is susceptible to it (perhaps with some form of magical perception check), and then choose another action if they're still too healthy to succumb. That would prevent spell wastage without pinning down an opponent's current HP value.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think standardizing the threshold to something meaningful that players can percieve would be good. Otherwise it's too much guesswork.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I like HP thresholds. With regards to the transparency, should players know enemy HP anyway? Generally this doesn't happen because it removes tension. Perhaps there should be an at-will 'detect life' type spell. Perhaps a skill check can give you the information.

Alternatively, maybe a threshold is too absolute. Maybe instead a spell could have a 'Base HP' stat, and you then calculate your 'Factor' relative to this number. You always make a saving throw, but you get a bonus equal to your Factor. So for sleep, the base score is 10hp. Less than 10hp and you get no bonus, 10-19 HP you get +1, 20-29 +2, etc.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Power Words always worked this way. And I always hated them. It's one of those rules that really encourages metagaming-trying to figure out how many hit points enemies have and matching the spell to that. It also takes us on yet another mind-bending trip through all the things hit points can mean; apparently if you're wounded you become more susceptible to being charmed or petrified.

Not a fan.