Hulking Hurler Paragon Path

[Dire Human]

Hello! I'm Dire Human, and I'm doing the finishing touches on a ranged barbarian build using Heavy Thrown weapons (coming soon!). I've just polished up one of the paragon paths for the class: the Hulking Hurler, based off the old 3.5 prestige class. While nowhere near as game-breaking as the original, I nevertheless feel that its mechanics could definitely use a once-over by a few extra eyes, and what better place than EnWorld?


Hulking Hurler
“Everything I touch becomes a deadly weapon. This axe. That chair. This stone. Even you.”

Prerequisite: Barbarian class, trained in Athletics


Hulking Hurler Path Features

Hulking Action (11th Level): When you spend an action point to make a ranged attack with a heavy thrown weapon and hit, one target of the attack and each enemy adjacent to that target is knocked prone.

Improved Improvisation (11th Level): Whenever you wield a one-handed improvised weapon, it gains a +2 proficiency bonus, the Heavy Thrown property, and its damage die increases to 1d6. In addition, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls with unenchanted weapons, and critical hits with them deal an extra 1d8 times this bonus. This enhancement bonus increases to +3 at 16th level, +4 at 21st level, and +5 at 26th level.

Giant’s Grasp (16th Level): You gain Improved Grab as a bonus feat.

Hurl Anything (16th Level): You gain proficiency with the two-handed improvised ranged weapon. This weapon has a +2 proficiency bonus, a 1d10 damage die, the Heavy Thrown and Small properties, and a range of 5/10. Any object up to a heavy load is considered a two-handed improvised weapon.


Hulking Hurler Evocations

Tumble and Fall, Hulking Hurler Attack 11
Your toss is powerful enough to sweep its target off its feet, and it stumbles backwards into its allies.
Encounter [FONT=&quot]✦[/FONT] Primal, Weapon
Standard Action, Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a heavy thrown weapon.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 3 squares. If the target ends the push adjacent to an enemy, the target and one enemy adjacent to the target are knocked prone.

Aerial Assistance, Hulking Hurler Utility 12
Your expertise is useful not only against your enemies, but for your allies as well.
At-Will [FONT=&quot]✦[/FONT] Primal
Move Action, Melee 1
Target: One ally
Effect: The target flies 5 squares. If the target cannot fly, it must land at the end of this movement.

Hurler’s Rage, Hulking Hurler Attack 20
To your allies, they are foes that must be defeated. To you, they are ammunition waiting to be used.
Daily [FONT=&quot]✦ [/FONT]Primal, Rage, Weapon
Minor Action, Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength + 4 vs. Reflex
Hit: The target is grabbed.
Effect: You enter the rage of the hurler. Until the rage ends, you gain a +2 power bonus to attack rolls with weapons with the Heavy Thrown property and can grab as a minor action. In addition, any grabbed creature of your size category can be used as a two-handed improvised weapon, and any smaller creature can be used as a one-handed improvised weapon.
Once during this encounter while raging, you can make the following attack as a ranged basic attack.

Secondary Target: One creature
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 6[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.
​

Creatures as Weapons
Your hurl anything feature, as well as the hurler’s rage power, can easily facilitate wielding a grabbed creature as a weapon. Here are the rules for doing so:

• The grabbed creature is considered an improvised weapon, and can only be used with basic attacks.
• If the attack hits, the damage is divided equally between the target and the grabbed creature.
• If the grabbed creature is used with a ranged attack, the grabbed creature falls prone in the target’s space after resolving the effects of the attack.

 

[bganon]

Looks cool, but I don't really understand the level 20 power or the "Creatures as Weapons" sidebar. Why is Hurler's Rage a ranged weapon power? Why Str +4? Is the secondary supposed to allow you to use your grabbed target (the sidebar seems to prohibit this)?

Why can grabbed creatures only be used with basic attacks? That's not true of improvised weapons in general. It also seems like it would make actually attacking with a grabbed creature pretty underwhelming. Also, if the "Creatures as Weapons" rules only come into play during Hurler's Rage, then maybe those rules should just be built into the power.

If monsters A and B are flanking me (and not adjacent to each other), then I can grab A and use it to attack monster B without even sliding A to be adjacent? That seems... odd. But there's going to be all kinds of weirdness with using monsters as weapons, and I'm not sure how make simple rules for it. It might be easiest to make the Rage begin with an unavoidable grab, and build one or two special "use-monster-as-weapon" powers right into the power entry.

 

[Breaks]

16F Hurl Anything needs an enhancement bonus and crit dice to match the 11F.

I'd actually advocate rolling the current Hurl Anything text in with the 11F, and making the 16F allow use of grabbed enemies as improvised weapons.

You want enemies, among other improvised weaponry, to be viable weapon substitutes for this build. Capping the enhancement bonus at +5 ensures a real weapon will always be better, when the entire point of this PP is to provide an exception to that rule. As long as you base the crunch on real weapons, you're in no danger of this being OP. The PrC used weight-based damage scaling, which doesn't exist in 4e.

+2 proficiency, 1d6 and 1d10 damage are both on the low end of acceptable as striker weapons. With no striker damage bonus (a barbarian's striker feature is his high number of dice and multiattacks), and with no magic weapon properties to choose from, feel free to toss extra goodies onto this PP.

This PP's biggest weakness, as addressed in the Hurler's Rage 20D, is action economy. No other ranged build needs to use a standard action (much less with an attack roll) to reload, or needs to be in melee range to do so (depending on the availability of other throwable objects handy). Consider adding minor-action grabbing to the new 16F, at least vs prone targets, or with the requirement that both of your hands are free.

The 12U is flavorful and useful, but doesnt help your action economy. This is another place you could put a minor action at-will grab, or an at-will move or minor action knock a grabbed target prone and either shift into its square or slide it into yours. Flavor text could indicate that you've picked the target up and are holding it above your head.

Other ideas:
The 11E could easily be a Grab-and-Throw two-part attack, even if you couldn't normally throw enemies yet. Phrase it so it could also be used with a nearby boulder. Hell, it could be a no-roll autograb vs "a target with reflex lower than or equal to your STR+10+level," and then a 3[W] throw. 20D Hurler's Rage could allow you to use the 11E at-will. This combo would suitably solve action economy issues without resorting to some or all of the ideas above.

Add language specifying that throwing a creature does not provoke an OA from it, or else that could get painful.

 

[Dire Human]

Alright then, let's see if we can clean this up. Changes are in red. A few notes:

• Creatures can no longer be used as weapons outside of hurler's rage. Effects that used to facilitate wielding creatures have been rolled into the power.
• I've added a nod to the old weight-based shenanigans of the PrC; if you're wielding a Heavy Load, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls.
• The enhancement bonus for wielding unenchanted weapons has increased to competitive levels. Consider the real bonus of this Paragon Path to be the money you'll save on weapons, and through that all the crazy magical equipment you'll buy.

Hulking Hurler v.2
“Everything I touch becomes a deadly weapon. This axe. That chair. This stone. Even you.”

Prerequisite: Barbarian class, trained in Athletics


Hulking Hurler Path Features

Hulking Action (11th Level): When you spend an action point to make a ranged attack with a heavy thrown weapon and hit, one target of the attack and each enemy adjacent to that target is knocked prone.

Improved Improvisation (11th Level): Whenever you wield a one-handed improvised weapon, it gains a +2 proficiency bonus, the Heavy Thrown property, and its damage die increases to 1d6. In addition, you gain a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls with unenchanted weapons, and critical hits with them deal an extra 1d8 times this bonus. This enhancement bonus increases to +4 at 16th level, +5 at 21st level, and +6 at 26th level.

Giant’s Grasp (16th Level): You can draw or pick up an object or weapon as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon or use the object.

Hurl Anything (16th Level): You gain proficiency with the two-handed improvised ranged weapon. This weapon has a +2 proficiency bonus, a 1d10 damage die, the Heavy Thrown and Small properties, and a range of 5/10. Any non-creature object up to a heavy load is considered a two-handed improvised weapon. If the object is a heavy load, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with the object.


Hulking Hurler Evocations

Tumble and Fall, Hulking Hurler Attack 11
Your toss is powerful enough to sweep its target off its feet, and it stumbles backwards into its allies.
Encounter [FONT=&quot]✦[/FONT] Primal, Weapon
Standard Action, Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a heavy thrown weapon.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 3 squares. If the target ends the push adjacent to an enemy, the target and one enemy adjacent to the target are knocked prone.

Aerial Assistance, Hulking Hurler Utility 12
Your expertise is useful not only against your enemies, but for your allies as well.
At-Will [FONT=&quot]✦[/FONT] Primal
Move Action, Melee 1
Target: One ally
Special: If an ally enters a square adjacent to you, you may use this power as an immediate reaction.
Effect: The target flies 5 squares. If the target cannot fly, it must land at the end of this movement.

Hurler’s Rage, Hulking Hurler Attack 20
To your allies, they are foes that must be defeated. To you, they are ammunition waiting to be used.
Daily [FONT=&quot]✦ [/FONT]Primal, Rage, Weapon
Minor Action, Melee 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength + 4 vs. Reflex
Hit: The target is grabbed.
Effect: You enter the rage of the hurler. Until the rage ends, you gain a +2 power bonus to attack rolls with weapons with the Heavy Thrown property and can grab as a minor action with a +4 bonus to the roll. In addition, any grabbed creature of your size category can be used as a two-handed improvised weapon, and any smaller creature can be used as a one-handed improvised weapon. Any attack that deals damage using a grabbed creature as an improvised weapon splits the damage evenly between the grabbed creature and the target, and if the attack is a ranged attack, the grabbed creature falls prone in the target’s space after resolving the effects of the attack.
Once during this encounter while raging, you can make the following attack as a ranged basic attack.

Standard Action, Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a heavy thrown weapon.
Secondary Target: One creature
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 6[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.
​

 

[Breaks]

Still needs "Throwing a grabbed enemy as part of a Ranged Attack does not provoke an Opportunity Attack from the enemy you are throwing."

I still think your damage will end up disappointing, unless you spend far more time smashing people with bolders in melee, because Barbarians have very, very few ranged attack powers. But if you change too much, a Ranger mc Barb could come steal the thunder. I realize you've made the damage dice competitive with available heavy thrown weapons, but they're still really, really low for barbarian weaponry. I've never seen a barbarian not use a superior two-hand 1d12 or 2d6 weapon, with either brutal or high crit or both. 1d6 does not compete with this, and neither does 1d10.

For most classes, static modifiers and striker mechanic dice eventually make up the vast majority of their damage, so the weapon dice don't matter very much. Barbarians just have several extra [W] on their attacks, which makes their weapon dice more important than for anyone else. It will also make throwing a 1d6 RBA even harder to justify beyond turn 1, when youve used up your one 3[W] throw, when a melee barbarian is swinging a fullblade for 3-4d12 for 3 more rounds. At 23, theres a 5[W] thrown power, but throwing a mordenkrad will do more damage than throwing a 500 lb slab of stone?

I'm not sure what the smoothest fix is. Avalanche Hurler increases thrown weapon dice by 1, which would take your d6 to a d8 and d10 to a d12. Most people seem to use things like dwarven thrower mordenkrads and hungry greatspears woth that PP, though, which still leaves you behind. I think the mistake lies in balancing it with thrown weaponry instead of with bows and crossbows, as thrown weaponry in 4e is almost exclusively for when a melee character is unable to get in range.

You could also consider compiling a list of powers which can be used at range with this PP, to bring down the discrepancy in numbers of dice rolled between an RBA and barb encounter powers.

 

[Shadus]

I FREAKING LOVE THE UTILITY POWER.
Just needs the line, 'If target ally is a Gnome, you can used them as a ranged basic attack against an enemy with-in 5 squares dealing 1d10+ Dex Mod damage.