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Hybrid Character Questions

Cundiff

First Post
My buddies and I are starting a new campaign, and I was looking at making a hybrid character but I am confused on how some of the hybrid options will work.

I would like to make a human two-weapon fighter/ranger hybrid who is an absolute beast in combat but alternately stupid in non-combat (his back story is that he is pretty much feral and was raised by a goblin tribe; thus he can barely read and write, but give him any weapon and he can take on an army).

If I understand the hybrid rules well enough, I should start off with the following:
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Hide
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee and ranged, Military melee and ranged
Bonus to defenses: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex (I choose reflex for the ranger side)
HP: 13 at first level, 5 per level
Healing Surges per day: 7 plus constitution modifier

Class Features:
Ranger - Hunter's Quarry (but only ranger attack powers)
Fighter - Combat Challenge (but only marks with fighter powers)

Do I have that right so far?

Also, I really am having a hard time understanding how exactly the Hybrid Talent feats work. There are two in particular that I want to make sure I fully understand before presenting to my DM: the Ranger Two-Blade Fighting Style, and the Fighter Tempest Technique.


According to the 3rd Player's Handbook on page 148, the Ranger Two-Blade Fighting Style says:
"Two-Blade Fighting Style: This class feature functions exactly as the ranger class feature (Player's Handbook, page 104)."

To which the 1st Player's Handbook states on page 104:
"Two-Blade Fighting Style: Because of your focus on two-weapon melee attacks, you can wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon....
In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat."

So if I took this Hybrid Talent feat, then would it make any one-handed weapon I held in my off hand be an off-hand weapon? I know it sounds confusing, but it comes into play if I take another Hybrid Talent feat described below. Also, would I still get the Toughness feat?

Then, if I wanted to also get the Tempest Technique with another Hybrid Talent feat, I would get the following (based on page 144 of Player's Handbook 3):
"Tempest Technique: This class feature functions exactly as the fighter class feature (Martial Power, page 7).

Martial Power, page 7:
"Tempest Technique: When you wield two melee weapons, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with weapons that have the off-hand property.
You gain Two-Weapon Defense as a bonus feat, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons. This bonus increases to +2 with weapons that have the off-hand property."

First off, again like Toughness, would I also get the Two-Weapon Defense feat?

Most important though, would the Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting grant the off-hand bonus to a non off-hand weapon?
 

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Cundiff

First Post
Oh, and I really want to try out the at-will attack combo of Throw and Stab (Ranger, MP 2) with Threatening Rush (Fighter, MP 2), assuming of course I have the Quick Draw feat. So that I can use both Hunter's Quarry and the Combat Challenge in one round.
 

Rampant

First Post
um you do realize that you don't actually get the damage bonus with off-hand weapons unless they have the off hand property, I mean even if the DM is nice and lets you get away with it for the off-hand weapon why bother when two shortswords or something will give you the damage boost on both weapons?
 

Spatula

Explorer
Also, I really am having a hard time understanding how exactly the Hybrid Talent feats work. There are two in particular that I want to make sure I fully understand before presenting to my DM: the Ranger Two-Blade Fighting Style, and the Fighter Tempest Technique.

According to the 3rd Player's Handbook on page 148, the Ranger Two-Blade Fighting Style says:
"Two-Blade Fighting Style: This class feature functions exactly as the ranger class feature (Player's Handbook, page 104)."

To which the 1st Player's Handbook states on page 104:
"Two-Blade Fighting Style: Because of your focus on two-weapon melee attacks, you can wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon....
In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat."

So if I took this Hybrid Talent feat, then would it make any one-handed weapon I held in my off hand be an off-hand weapon? I know it sounds confusing, but it comes into play if I take another Hybrid Talent feat described below. Also, would I still get the Toughness feat?
Not quite, and yes you get Toughness.

Normally you can only wield a weapon with the off-hand property in your off-hand. The ranger feature allows you to wield a one-handed weapon in your off-hand, instead, like a longsword or a war axe. It doesn't actually make the weapon an off-hand weapon, though. It just allows you to treat it as one for the purposes of equipping it in your off-hand.

Then, if I wanted to also get the Tempest Technique with another Hybrid Talent feat,
Not sure if you're aware, but you can only take 1 hybrid talent feat, unless you hit 11th level and go for the hybrid paragon path (which gives you a second hybrid talent).

I would get the following (based on page 144 of Player's Handbook 3):
"Tempest Technique: This class feature functions exactly as the fighter class feature (Martial Power, page 7).

Martial Power, page 7:
"Tempest Technique: When you wield two melee weapons, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with weapons that have the off-hand property.
You gain Two-Weapon Defense as a bonus feat, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons. This bonus increases to +2 with weapons that have the off-hand property."

First off, again like Toughness, would I also get the Two-Weapon Defense feat?

Most important though, would the Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting grant the off-hand bonus to a non off-hand weapon?
Yes, you would get TWD. No, the ranger TWF feature doesn't give the off-hand property to the weapon.
 
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Spatula

Explorer
Oh, and I really want to try out the at-will attack combo of Throw and Stab (Ranger, MP 2) with Threatening Rush (Fighter, MP 2), assuming of course I have the Quick Draw feat. So that I can use both Hunter's Quarry and the Combat Challenge in one round.
That doesn't work. You might be looking at a pre-errata version of Throw and Stab that says make a charge attack. The current wording is "Effect: You move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack against a creature other than the target."
 

pemerton

Legend
Just a post to endorse both of [MENTION=2198]Spatula[/MENTION]'s replies.

That is:

* Can't take Hybrid Talent twice except via Hybrid paragon path;

* TWF doesn't actually grant the off-hand property;

* Throw and Stab has been errata-ed to remove the charge and replace it with a move + melee basic attack;

* Hybrid Talent to take TWF or Tempest will give you the appropriate "embedded" feat (Toughness or TWD).
 

Cundiff

First Post
Hmm, I guess our books must be old, because yeah, the Throw and Stab says its effect grants a charge. Damn.

I also didn't even think about not being able to take Hybrid Talent more than once (save giving up a paragon path)...

Hybrid characters seem like they're really weakened then, if you can't gain access to multiple talents (again, save giving up a paragon path). Looks like the better option for my guy would be to do a full ranger, but get a multiclass feat like Battle Awareness or something.

Thanks a lot for clearing that up!
 

Dan'L

First Post
Looks like the better option for my guy would be to do a full ranger, but get a multiclass feat like Battle Awareness or something.

Depending on what you want your end-product to look like, also consider going with full fighter with the Two-Blade Warrior multiclass feat.

You won't get the free toughness feat, but you'll have fighter-level defenses and HP, and you can use the 1-handed weapon talent to gain some nice accuracy for your bigger [W] die.

I made a PC this way and ended up with a nice defender/striker.

-Dan'L
 

Spatula

Explorer
Another option is a hybrid barbarian / fighter. The whirling slayer barbarian build (from Primal Power) is a dual-wielder that uses Strength & Dexterity. The difference between barbarian and ranger here is that I believe barbarians get some powers that mark their target, which could then trigger Combat Challenge. I could be mis-remembering though.

EDIT: A good example is Savage Growl (utility 2, primal power). It marks a target AND gives you +1d8 dmg against it while the mark lasts. Although the target gets +1d8 dmg vs you as well, which maybe gives it the incentive to not break the mark...
 
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SensoryThought

First Post
I like the idea of hybrids as they counter one of the oft complaints about 4e, which is a lack of ability to make unique and customized characters. The fact they are reduced in overall power compared to non-hybrids is good, else everyone would play them. I see it as a trade off for versatility and your choice to be an extra special snowflake.

One of my players who just suffered character death is starting a new hybrid halfling ranger-rogue who can be at home in urban and wilderness environments.
 

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