Hydra heads

[Garnfellow]

The "5 bites" doesn't really tell us much. Unless you think the "2 claws" in most monster entries tells us the same.

How many monsters have "2 claws" in their Attack entry? I'll wager the number in the SRD is somewhere between 0 and 0. Note that there is a VERY important distinction between the "Attack" and "Full Attack" lines. See the troll entry, for example.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Ahh, I see. I still don't think that has an affect, though. An Attack of Opportunity isn't a Standard Action, which is what the "Attack" line indicates.

The "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" is really all you need. Unless that's different in the MM, which I don't have access to at the moment.

 

[airwalkrr]

Just to nitpick (but support your argument even more), the hydra DOES get a full attack on the first round if it can reach them at all, as "it can attack with all heads without penalty even if it moves or charges" according to the first line of its combat description in the MM.

Ah yes. I forgot that detail. Thank you.

Although I appreciate your combat breakdown, I still think you are assuming the party don't use more appropriate tactics. For example, you assume the fighter provokes when he moves in, which is not necessary.

I cannot think of very many fighter builds that would allow them to avoid this. Reached weapon specialists is one, but that really is not as common as the greatsword figther. Swashbuckler is another, but... it is a swashbuckler.[/quote]

Also, you are ignoring the sunder heads option.

It is extremely rare for any character to take Improved Sunder since using it often involves destroying the treasure. In fact, DMs rarely do so for the same reason: it does not usually add to the fun of the game to take a PC's weapon away. Outside of having Improved Sunder, this is not a very viable tactic due to the hydra's size bonuses.

And when you mention that the fighter will go down if he's not healed, well that's an essential requirement in many combats against heavy hitting opponents.

I disagree. It is a hazard of the occupation, but not a requirement. At high levels you are likely to die if you go down simply because the damage dealt at those levels is so high it is often more than enough to put you past -10.

Perhaps the party could rotate combatants out of the front line to heal or something.

Considering the nature of the argument, this is not a very strong point. Rotating out typically involves attacks of opportunity which, if you use the many attacks per AoO interpretation is extremely hazardous. At low levels, a well-built rogue will have about a 10% chance of failing a tumble check, but that necessitates half movement and the possibility is still there. As for most other character classes, tumbling out is not an option, and fighters rarely use tower shields.

These actual combats by (on average) 6th level party vs CR8 cryohydra show that most parties didn't find it as difficult as one might think on paper.

The higher you get in level, the more the CR system simply breaks down because the variance of abilities grows as you approach high level. My main concern with the hydra is its impact on low-level parties. It is already a rough job, but if you throw in the multiple attacks per AoO interpretation, it becomes prohibitive. If you use that interpretation, the hydra needs a CR adjustment, at least at lower levels.

 

[airwalkrr]

Suppose, instead, the well-prepared Wizard opens with Web. Target is Entangled with no save, takes -2 to attack, -4 to dex, half move, can't run or charge. That Hydra is now making 20 feet per round with no attacks, 10 feet per round with attacks.

And suppose that, after the Web, everyone just shoots arrows; Ranger at 1d8+4 with his +11 standard action attack, Bard with 1d8+0 / +7; Wizard 1d8-1 / +4; Druid at 1d8 / +6.

Ranger hits 95% of the time, and averages 8.075 points of damage.
Bard hits 75% of the time, and averages 3.375 points of damage.
Druid hits 70% of the time, and averages 3.15 points of damage.
Wizard hits 60% of the time, and averages 2.1 points of damage.

That's an average of 16.7 damage per round, after the first, using only a standard action, leaving the move action free for everybody. With fast healing 15, that's an average of 1.7 damage per round.

Everyone in the party can get 30 feet in a round and still attack; the Hydra can get only 10 feet in a round and still attack, or 20 feet in a round and not attack. It can't keep up. The party can stay at range, pelting the stupid (Int 2!) hydra for as long as they have arrows and a retreat path. It goes down in 32 rounds, and is dead after that, provided everyone happens to have lots & lots of arrows.

Granted, Web is probably overpowered for it's level, and there's better strategies to follow that will kill the hydra faster. However, if the party goes first, they take no damage, use up one 2nd level spell, and lots of arrows. Sounds a lot like a CR 4 encounter.

There are several problems with this simulation. 1) According to the MM, Hydras live in marshes where, according to the DMG, there are rarely trees to anchor it to (in fact, if the DM follows it verbatim, the PCs will never see trees in a marsh since the DMG does not list trees as a standard marsh feature). A lot of people forget about this restriction. Entangle is a better spell to use, but a hydra is still just as likely to break out. 2) A hydra in the middle of a web spell gets cover. Depending on its location the PCs might not be able to see it at all. 3) I guarantee you a hydra will break out of a web spell long before 32 rounds are up. Even if it takes over 10 rounds, it is not unreasonable for an Int 2 creature to want to take refuge (i.e. total cover) in a bog to heal before coming back out to attack. 4) The hydra only takes the speed penalty in the web for as long as it is in the web spell. After that it moves just fine.

Web is a great spell, but it is situational. Unless a hydra is encountered out of its element, it is unlikely to even work.

 

[airwalkrr]

Hydras are magical creatures with many abilities that already defy what would be possible in reality. You don't find it reality-defying that they can heal wounds almost instantaneously or breathe fire?

The abilities of a hydra that are magical are described and laid out plainly. Preternaturally quick is not one of those abilities. Hence, a cop out and an excuse. If the explanation of how it is affected by combat reflexes were more clear, it might be arguable that this too, is laid out and described plainly, but it is not. It is ambiguous and unclear and nothing else in the hydra description or abilities seems to imply that it is extremely quick or agile.

Who knows, perhaps the heads do collide but the hydra is unaffacted due to its' fast healing?

Fast healing does not make you immune to impact damage. To assume something like this is attributing a property to an ability that the ability description does not include.

As for the second argument, CR is an extremely variable and subjective rating system.

It is more extreme at higher levels, but relatively balanced at low levels. The hydra is an exception imho.

My argument in favor of interpretation 1, that the hydra gets its' full set of attacks on each AoO but can take only two per round is based on the RAW.

This argument is the most cogent and strongest to be made against my side and I have heard it before. I admit it makes a good case, but I think mine is better. We simply disagree on how to interpret some of the terms in the SRD. I, for one, do not think that a hydra is typical with regard to how these attacks work and hence probably falls outside the category of "most." I also think that an attack of opportunity is always a single attack unless specifically and CLEARLY superceded by a special rule. The hydra description is specific, but not clear.

If, for arguments sake, we imagine the entry for 'Attack:' on a five-headed hydra's stats to be '+6 melee (5d10+15)' instead of '5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)' it would obviously get to make that one attack when it took an AoO.

So if it would be obvious to you that it only gets one attack per AoO if the attack entry only listed one attack, then why is it necessary to describe how Combat Reflexes works for a hydra. If we assume that the attack entry means the attack (or attacks) used for an AoO, why do we need the MM to tell us what we already know? It also seems like you are assuming the hydra would still use all of its heads for a single attack. I do not think this would be the case. I believe one attack of opportunity = one attack roll = one head.

 

[TimSmith]

Ah yes. I forgot that detail. Thank you.

My pleasure!

I cannot think of very many fighter builds that would allow them to avoid this. Reached weapon specialists is one, but that really is not as common as the greatsword figther. Swashbuckler is another, but... it is a swashbuckler.

I meant that once the hydra attacks them they simply 5 foot step in to attack. No AoO.

It is extremely rare for any character to take Improved Sunder since using it often involves destroying the treasure. In fact, DMs rarely do so for the same reason: it does not usually add to the fun of the game to take a PC's weapon away. Outside of having Improved Sunder, this is not a very viable tactic due to the hydra's size bonuses.

You do not have to sunder the heads with improved sunder. If you ready an action to sunder when it attacks, you can do so without AoO. The size bonuses don't apply to sunder-its an opposed attack roll so size bonuses are actually PENALTIES! Having said that, the parties in the Shackled City thread don't seem to have gone the sundering route (or changed tactics on finding it unviable) so it appears that its not an easy path to victory. The Lernean regrowing of heads is harsh when its now a standard hydra ability...

I disagree. It is a hazard of the occupation, but not a requirement. At high levels you are likely to die if you go down simply because the damage dealt at those levels is so high it is often more than enough to put you past -10.

Having played a dwarf tank in Return to the Temple of Excremental Weevils (I think that was its name, anyway ), I know I used to get pounded on by the monsters. Healing was often required mid-fight to avoid the likelihood of a killer blow like you describe. Therefore I would say that to be truly effective meat shields fighters DO need bolstering with healing so as to keep them going if the fight is against a melee brute like the hydra.

Considering the nature of the argument, this is not a very strong point. Rotating out typically involves attacks of opportunity which, if you use the many attacks per AoO interpretation is extremely hazardous. At low levels, a well-built rogue will have about a 10% chance of failing a tumble check, but that necessitates half movement and the possibility is still there. As for most other character classes, tumbling out is not an option, and fighters rarely use tower shields.

Actually I think you are right there. I was thinking of the withdraw action (no AoO) but of course the hydra has reach (and hungry heads...)

The higher you get in level, the more the CR system simply breaks down because the variance of abilities grows as you approach high level. My main concern with the hydra is its impact on low-level parties. It is already a rough job, but if you throw in the multiple attacks per AoO interpretation, it becomes prohibitive. If you use that interpretation, the hydra needs a CR adjustment, at least at lower levels.

Well, against low level parties you may be right. The DM would probably have to build in some situational factors to let the party gain significant advantage from terrain or whatever so they could exploit the hydra's lack of maneuverability.

Well, they would HAVE to have reach weapons for such a situation to even be possible. Nevertheless, I have a slightly easier time believing that 12 attacks can come from 12 different directions from a small implement like a spearhead than for 12 attacks to all come from the same direction from a large implement like a hydra head (which according to the picture is as large as a human torso).

I am surprised that you are concerned about the space that the heads take up when attacking. With flexible necks the heads can arc in from various angles and snap at different body parts. The heads are operating in 3 dimensions and do not themselves occupy a square. Nor should they IMHO because the whole 5 foot square for a medium combatant rule is an abstraction in an attempt to build in several factors.

 

[Stalker0]

I meant that once the hydra attacks them they simply 5 foot step in to attack. No AoO.

A possibility, and a extremely dangerous one at that. So the fighter takes a full round attack from the hydra, then steps in, and now can't withdraw without provoking an AOO. The fighter has most likely already taken massive damage from its first barrage of attacks, in some cases it may not even be able to take one more full barrage of attacks.

The point about the marsh terrain is interesting, is terrain type ever taken into account when they do CRs?

I personally think that interpretation 1 makes the most sense by the mechanics. However, I do think interpretations 2 and 3 do have some justification by RAW, and combined with the CR arguments and the balance arguments I think have some good justification overall.

 

[Nail]

Our group has taken down 2 hydras (one at low level, one at high level). In both cases, and after advance warning, we were able to use tactics that easily took them out in just a few rounds. ...and sundering was never used; what an awful tactic!

Hydras are tough if (and only if) the PCs are surprised in a limited dungeon environment.

 

[Nail]

A possibility, and a extremely dangerous one at that. So the fighter takes a full round attack from the hydra, then steps in, and now can't withdraw without provoking an AOO.

1st level spell: Obscuring Mist

What AoO?

 

[Halcyon]

The abilities of a hydra that are magical are described and laid out plainly. Preternaturally quick is not one of those abilities. Hence, a cop out and an excuse. If the explanation of how it is affected by combat reflexes were more clear, it might be arguable that this too, is laid out and described plainly, but it is not. It is ambiguous and unclear and nothing else in the hydra description or abilities seems to imply that it is extremely quick or agile.

So you argue that because it is not explicitly stated a magical (i.e. reality-violating) creature cannot possibly have unenumerated minor magical properties that might only be implied by the rules? You argue reality, I argue it's magic so reality doesn't concern me. It is not a cop out, just a different perspective.

Fast healing does not make you immune to impact damage. To assume something like this is attributing a property to an ability that the ability description does not include.

My implication was more that any minor subdual damage it might take from having such a collision occur would be almost instantly healed and therefore irrelevant. It was not an entirely serious point, but there are many possible way to conceive that a hydra could accomplish this. Would you argue that if something passes in front of your hand you could not manage to tap it with all or most of your fingers?

It is more extreme at higher levels, but relatively balanced at low levels. The hydra is an exception imho.

I agree that hydras are not the easiest fight, but as with most magical things, it is best fought with magic. There are plenty of ways that the party can avoid fighting it or harm it. The five headed hydra you seem to feel is the worst offender CR-wise is easily subject to cause fear or scare with its +3 for Will saves, meaning the party may not even have to fight it but could simply scare it away and bypass it. Hypnotic pattern could also be used to fascinate it assuming the rest of the party leaves it alone. With a +5 Relex save and +1 balance check (only its Dex), grease stands a good chance of making it very difficult for the hydra to move much less stay on its feet. The hydra does have a relatively good Fort save of +9, but even so with its' low touch AC the spectral hand/ghoul touch combo has a not insignificant chance of landing which would also end the fight. These are just some of the SRD based options a sorc/wiz has. Hydras are not easy, but one 5 headed one is by no means instantly a tpk for a party of 4th level characters

I believe the RAW make the case, but it seems we may just have to agree to disagree on this issue