I am become Pun-Pun, destroyer of multiverses

[riprock]

When D&D 3.0 came out, I really liked it. When it started getting bogged down with extra material, I liked it less. However, I thought rule-intensive games could be good -- because I assumed that everyone would always have a high commitment to consistency in rule systems.

Now, just today, I have read about Pun-Pun and his assorted cohorts.

Pun-Pun is a perfectly legal 3.5 character build. One starts with a kobold; it takes one level in Wizard, one level in Divine Minion, and three levels in "Master of Many Forms." It has a familiar. At fifth level, it can give itself arbitrarily high numbers for all stats, break down the barriers between planes, and kill all the gods.

That, you see, is what happens when rule-intensive games don't check for consistency.

The whole bizarre construction of Pun-Pun can be found at:
Pun-Pun post


An elegant Action Point exploit is at:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=565966


The list of 3.5 loopholes can be continued for days.

Say what you like about AD&D -- it was *hard* to become a god and the DM's judgement was written into the process.

Likewise, in the Rules Cyclopedia --- becoming a god was doable, reasonable, and very challenging.

 

[PallidPatience]

Where would you find the Divine Minion class/PrC? I don't really believe this build, and want to see it for myself.

 

[Turjan]

I like Pun-Pun as a thought experiment . But I really have to meet a DM who, in a serious game, would allow this to happen. And a "but it is in the rules" answer doesn't count with me. The rules are there to facilitate gaming. Pun-Pun doesn't meet that criterion.

 

[Thanee]

The list of 3.5 loopholes can be continued for days.

This is not a problem of 3.5, though. It's a problem of its magnitude and too many different authors, some of which clearly have no clue about what they are doing. And too little playtesting, too sloppy editing.

Some of the abilities used there are so ridiculous, that they should never got printed.

Especially the author of the sentence "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." (without putting any form of limit on this ability) must have been on crack or something...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Stalker0]

There comes a point when you add so many sourcebooks, feats, prcs, abilities, and combos are going to naturally arise that noone thought of originally...its inevitable. There's a reason we have dms.

There is one thing more powerful than Pun Pun, and that's a dm saying no

 

[Mallus]

That, you see, is what happens when rule-intensive games don't check for consistency.

Or its what happens when you forget that the rules aren't the game.

They're a set of tool used to create the game. Which first have to be parsed through, and implemented by, a living, breathing DM...

 

[wayne62682]

IIRC there's one line that's left open to interpretation in Pun-Pun's build that is the whole cause for everything; and WotC has not errata'ed it yet. The issue isn't the rules, its with people who do nothing all day (it seems) but look for ways to break the rules through literal interpretations, poorly chosen words from the designers and/or "Nowhere in the rules does it explicitly state I can't do [insert broken thing here]!"

To his credit, Pun-Pun was designed as an exercise and never intended to be used by anyone in game (the creator even said as much); the same goes for all the rest of the WotC CO boards monstrosities like the Hulking Hurler, the H.I.V.E. and the rest who I forget at the moment. The issue is still that people sit here and try to come up with absurd combinations that utterly ruin the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm a powergamer myself but I have limits.

Regards,

Wayne

 

[Thanee]

Or its what happens when you forget that the rules aren't the game.

Too true.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Einan]

Here's the rub for me: How is the Pun-Pun build, getting to it or as proof that D&D 3.x is broken, any fun?

D&D, for me, is a game. A game is supposed to be fun. I have fun playing D&D 3.x. Therefore, I don't particularly care if there's a phenomenal loophole out there that I can exploit. I don't exploit games, I play them. And for myself, I played AD&D a few times and didn't find it enjoyable. The concept was great, but the execution was complicated and incoherent (to me, before anyone says anything) and it got in the way of the fun. D&D 3.0 was fun and pretty easy when it came out. Since then I've noticed a trend toward options, which is probably the same trend that doomed AD&D and made it less than fun for me to play. In my own games I've tried to slow this, but it's darn hard to do.

I strongly suspect that when a lot of people feel the same way, the next edition will be launched and the cycle will restart. Pun-Pun is not definite proof that D&D is broken; Pun-Pun is definite proof that some people need to prove that D&D is broken. And that some people have way more free time than I do.

Einan

 

[Thanee]

IIRC there's one line that's left open to interpretation in Pun-Pun's build that is the whole cause for everything; and WotC has not errata'ed it yet.

While the main problem (the sarrukh's supernatural ability) is still there, the Pun-Pun build that is linked above, doesn't work. The Divine Mind Wildshape is not enough to qualify for the Master of Many Forms (it's not a class feature).

Also...

Fast Wild Shape (Su): A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves (divine minions of Set also have a vermin form). The divine minion can use this ability at will, can change form as a free action, and can spend time in animal form indefinitely. They prefer to keep their shapechanging abilities secret so that they can use them to surprise their enemies in combat. Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor.

The master of many forms’ class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form.

So these two abilities do not stack, since the Divine Minion is a template, not a class.

It still does work, though, with a higher level character, that actually can change into a sarrukh.

Bye
Thanee