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D&D 5E I Am SO Over The "Rootless Vagabond" Archetype

prosfilaes

Adventurer
So, like, if every dwarf character has to pick from a list of dwarf-specific plot hooks that are about dwarves in the world (including maybe an item like "One of my cousins was involved in the Lost Mine of Deepmurk, where it was said that they dug so deep they entered the Abyss"), that would then lead to fightin' and explorin' and interactin', related to that hook.

If you offer a hook, then I know that you're going to take that hook. If a DM took a backstory and then specifically asked me for connections, talking personally to me, then I'd be a lot more interested in actually offering connections. Other people may have different problems, but I would basically just need evidence that it's worth my time making this connections.

The Thief's Guild probably isn't going anywhere, so why, when the offer is extended to the party thief to join, do they decline?

Why would you want to join the thief's guild? A thief's guild arranges protection rackets and organized bribery of constables in exchange for a healthy cut of the profits. (And criminal organizations don't pay well; coke dealers have quit to work at McDonald's, because it pays better.) An adventuring thief has little need of their services and little desire to get entangled in whatever they're doing, or paying their fees. Maybe your view of a thief's guild is more cheerful but it just doesn't have the ring of a noble order or wizard's guild.
 

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Haval

First Post
Nihil supernum

No rescuer hath the rescuer. No Lord hath the champion, no mother and no father, only nothingness above.
 


pemerton

Legend
One of the power fantasies that D&D allows for is self-sufficient characters who answer to no one, who improve their own skills by slaying their own monsters and never need anyone else. They come into town from Elsewhere, on some impossible mission, looking for only gold or glory, and leave just as suddenly, attached to no one, without responsibility or background.

<snip>

As a DM, I see a character like this enter my games, and I kind of sigh and shrug. "Well, I guess we've got another one for the pile of empty ciphers who talk in funny voices, whose goal doesn't go beyond 'kill the bad guys.'"

<snip>

I feel like most players don't come up with characters like this intentionally, but rather through an odd combination of design accident and system assumptions, they arrive here.
If you read Gygax's PHB (especially the introductory pages - I think around p 7) and his DMG (especially the discussion of "The First Dungeon Adventure") you will see that he describes a single motive for PCs: acquiring fame and fortune. Furthermore, there is no suggestion to the GM that s/he might incorporate PC backgrounds into scenario or world design.

I think this will naturally tend towards the creation of "rootless vagabond" PCs, of the more-or-less Conan-esque sort.

Moldvay Basic is different from Gygax in this respect - in chapter 8 on GMing advice, in discussing the creation of dungeons and dungeon adventures, Moldvay says that "the GM should always give the players a reason to be adventuring". I think what is meant is that there should be some ingame reason, other than the more-or-less metagame ones of gaining XP by killing and looting, for the PCs to engage in the adventure.

But this idea is not elaborated at all.

So the practical outcome for many tables I think will be not that different from Gygax.

I've never liked rootless vagabonds, and pretty much never saw them in games from OD&D onwards - we were always running and playing in campaigns, and getting involved in the society was always one of the objectives. I don't really remember anyone wanting to play 'the man with no name', everybody wanted to build their castle/tower/temple, and rise in status in the society.

I think that OD&D and AD&D definitely supported and encouraged this kind of play - it was right there in the name level benefits after all!
This is about the creation of social connections during play. But that doesn't necessarily depart from the rootless vagabond, Conan-esque archetype. Nor does it remove self-aggrandisement as a principal character motivation.

But it does require the GM to permit the players, via their PCs, to make permanent changes to the campaign world. I think some GMs who don't want that to happen might even succeed in discouraging this self-aggrandising, Conan-style form of social connectedness.

There's another issue as well. Miscommunication between the DM and players. Say the player takes a character who has lots of ties to a local town, he's been defending that town from invading armies and has now set out to join forces with a larger army to try to protect his town. But, the DM's campaign then moves the party several month's journey away from that town, which means all that background is basically pointless since it cannot be leveraged at all.
I have seen this happen not just through miscommunication, but through a deliberate decision by the GM to remove the PCs from a situation in which the players might exercise leverage over the campaign world in virtue of their PCs' social connections.

Which is a version of the GMing that I just described in reply to Plane Sailing - not wanting the players to be able to exercise any sort of enduring control over the campaign world. I think the idea of invested players playing invested PCs isn't a good fit with the idea of unilateral GM control over the content of the shared fiction.

I think some of the problem can be tied to players' lack of setting knowledge. When you don't have perfect knowledge of the world, it can be a little hard to tie yourself to the Order of Ebony or the Justicar's Guild when all the information you have on these things is a paragraph in your DM's setting bible. My players, at least, aren't the type to create an organization as part of their background (despite my encouragement), and don't want to tie themselves to something that may come back later to bite them on the behind.
These days I start my campaigns by sitting down with the players and make a relationship map.

<snip>

Everybody is allowed to invent NPCs, and I encourage all to invent at least one or two that are important to their charactes.

<snip>

Together we build a social background and web. Drawing lines between them all that fit.
I like the player generation approach to backstory. I've never done it in the style that Henrix describes - I tend to work with individual players, in conversation or via email as we are preparing for a new campaign, and then in an ad hoc way at the table for the first session. But as part of this I'm happy to help the PCs develop connections to one another, develop the NPCs they need, etc.

In my last RM campaign two of the PCs were members of the same samurai clan, and a third was a warrior-mage from a non-samurai background whose family's money had bought him a position as a warrior with that clan. Another PC started out as a fox spirit who had raised himself (via discipline and training) into human form, but otherwise having little connection to the other PCs (he served as their guide on the first adventure). But a little while into the campaign - as the importance of the spirit world and cosmological matters became more evident - the player decided that he was really some sort of animal spirit outcast from the Celestial courts. This connected that PC very strongly into the unfolding events of the campaign, and the decision by the other PCs to side with their fox friend against the constables of Heaven who came to arrest him was one of their first steps in what turned out to be a struggle against the dictates of Heaven and of the Lords of Karma that was focal to the latter part of the campaign and its resolution.

In my current 4e campaign, I told each player that his/her 1st level PC had to have a loyalty to someone or something. For a couple of players this was a loyalty to a god that was already established (via the rulebooks) as part of the campaign world, but one player created a basic outline of dwarven society to give context to his dwarf PC, another created a backstory around a sacked city and his family in exile, and a third created a secret society that works among the elves and the drow and is dedicated to undoing the sundering of the elves by freeing the drow from the tyranny of Lolth and bringing them back into communion with Corellon.

These provided starting points that are then built on in play.

In the Rolemaster campaign I mentioned the players did maintain a relationship map, but mostly so that they could keep track of the many and various NPCs and factions introduced into the campaign over the course of play, and their relationships to one another and to the PCs.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
I think I should be clear that my goal with this is to get to more dungeon crawling, but to have the characters more invested in the goal of that dungeon crawling than "gold and fame and I've got a Good alignment so I'd help." I want them to have a more personal and more interesting stake in the outcomes of the dungeon crawl.

I really think it's pretty easy to get players invested in dungeon crawling: create a bunch of dungeons and let them pick their goals.

The most recent dungeon I made was because a PC wanted to discover an "Astral Seed", a mini-black hole that would allow her to create her own universe. An NPC "rival" was searching for the same thing, so she went to stop her. Since the dungeon was made by NPCs and of interest to NPCs - other than the rival - there were many opportunities for the PC to get more involved in it than just murder death kill.

[sblock=Dhalia Doomfey and the Tower of Whispers]
Background: From the other universe that intrudes on this one, the Elder Brain came. It colonized Pluto and used proto-humans as slaves to procure brains for it to torment for all eternity. Eventually the Plutonians rebelled and the Elder Brain was forced to the Moon.

On the Moon it tried to absorb the brain of Sehanine, Goddess of Love. Her moon-elves saved her thanks to some magical anti-psi stuff. Instead of killing the Elder Brain they used it to extract memories of all those souls trapped within. Over thousands of years the moon-elves became bored with their lives and left the prison which held the Elder Brain.

The NPC rival (procedurally) learned that the Elder Brain held the secrets of the Astral Seed. She tried to learn its secrets, but was (procedurally) stymied. When Dhalia Doomfey went to the moon to defeat her rival, she made friends of the Plutonians there - and became an enemy of their Witch Queen.

Dhalia met her rival and blasted her insane psyche, turning her mad desires into love. Then she broke her promise to the Plutonians - that she would kill the Elder Brain - and instead convinced Sehanine to free all of its lost souls.

She left the moon with nine loyal Plutonians and the remnants of her rival's insane followers.

(It should be noted that Dhalia is a rootless vagabond.)[/sblock]
 

EroGaki

First Post
In all of my years of gaming, both as a player and as a DM, I've never experienced the problem of "Rootless Vagabonds." Mainly because the players don't exist in a vacuum. They may start out with no living relatives and no friends, but that changes as the game goes by. Soon, you have a party that, like it or not, as interacted with countless npc's, and made friends and foes alike.

My current character is a lot like Gandalf the Gray. He wanders here and there, adventuring, fighting the forces of evil with his allies, and seeking out new magical mysteries. Much like Gandalf, I have a few friends in every town we've passed through; the barkeep at a tavern we saved from brigands gifted the party with free drinks for life; we pass through there whenever we get the chance. Likewise, we have enemies.

My character started out as an urchin, no family of friends, and almost no background. But he has plenty of roots.
 

fuindordm

Adventurer
I hope you don't mind my playing devil's advocate here. I understand your perspective, and I've had phases like that too. But I'm not in that phase currently, so here's an opposing perspective.

I think this is a non-problem. It's more evidence of your changing tastes as a gamer and storyteller than an issue with the game or your players.

From the player's perspective, there are pros and cons to making a PC with strong ties to the world.

PROS: potential spotlight time in the campaign, more investment in the character, non-mercenary motives for adventuring, more authorship

CONS: you may be forced into the spotlight, role-playing your personal goals may introduce conflict in the party, waste of effort to think too hard about backstory as opposed to letting PC personality and ties grow organically

Personally, when I make a PC I have two major goals: give him or her a reason to be traveling and adventuring while getting along well with other party members, and come up with a handful of interesting personality/background hooks that I can use to drive RP decisions. But I recognize that the DM has a story to tell too, and as part of playing well with others this means my PC should start with vague enough goals to line up with the campaign. This sort of character might come across as a lone wanderer when the design goal is to be someone who has a good reason to participate in the DMs story. Strong ties to the setting can come later.

And as a DM, I have had the opposite experience of players who, while not necessarily strongly linked to the setting, have strong personal goals that introduce party conflict or derail the campaign (my PC wouldn't go on that adventure you prepared!).

So overall, as a gamer, my preference as player and DM is to let the ties between the PCs and the setting emerge organically from play. I'm absolutely fine if all the PCs begin as murderhobos, lone wanderers, or easy stereotypes as long as they all want to play together. The rest can come later. Some PCs will accept the hand of friendship from NPCs and tie themselves to the factions in play; others will refuse, but continue adventuring out of friendship with the other PCs. Either is fine, and I don't find their characters boring because the players made that choice. The living history of the campaign is what gives the PCs their unique flavor, 10 times more than the backstory they wrote when they rolled up the character.
 

Shayuri

First Post
Fuindordm has a good point. Cliches actually make pretty good starting points. The trouble comes when people are resistant to developing past them. I know I've played my share of rootless characters, but always with the intent of growing past that. The last time I played a thief on the run from the thief's guild...it was because later on I came back to take that thing over. :)

And of course, being opposed to an organization is still a tie, as 13th Age adroitly incorporates into its Icon Relationships. Having good enemies is at least as important as having good friends. :)
 


Hussar

Legend
KM said:
Of course, this doesn't quite explain why someone would be gun-shy about joining an in-world organization or some other campaign group. The Thief's Guild probably isn't going anywhere, so why, when the offer is extended to the party thief to join, do they decline?


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...s-Vagabond-quot-Archetype/page5#ixzz3ICiiNysu

Yeah, that's a bit more annoying. Not only are the players basically playing ciphers, but, even when ties to the game world are dangled in front of them, with lots of carrot, they still don't bite and go back to being Fytor the Fighter. Getting players to buy into a setting and getting them to actually care about the setting can be very, very difficult. I've met more than a few players who basically have zero interest in the campaign as a world - they just want to deal with the immediate issues at hand - whether it's a dungeon crawl or talking to NPC's or whatnot, it's not limited to pure roll players at all - and aren't interested in the larger world.

Then again, there's a fair body of fantasy to draw on with a similar sort of inspiration. Conan is a good example. For most of the stories, before he becomes a king anyway, Conan doesn't give a toss about tomorrow or anything beyond the next meal ticket. His ties to the setting are very, very light since he tends to move around so much, and, generally, in most stories, everyone else dies. And he rides off into he sunset for another adventure another day.

I can see where people get the archetype from. It just can be so frustrating for the DM who is trying to cement the characters into the setting and they aren't having any of it.
 

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