I don't know how to run lurkers

[noodle fish mice]

Most of my meager contributions lately have been bitching about Essentials, which isn't terribly representative of my thoughts on the game. I love 4E! I bitch because I love! So I'm starting a thread where I, uh, actually talk about the game, rather than stoking flames.

Anyways. I'm statting up some monsters for an ambush encounter, and I figure there should probably be a lurker or two. Lurkers, though, get shafted at our table (and not just when I'm DMing) because none of us know how to run them. More broadly, we don't know how to handle stealth at all. I know the rules for stealth, but I don't know what to do when one of my baddies employs them. Do I remove his mini from the grid? Do I leave it there with an unhelpful "But you guys can't see him!" reminder? If I do remove it from the grid, how best to keep track of where it is?

My favorite idea is to have a token with a question mark on it to replace the lurker once it stealths - to remind my players "Hey where'd he go?" and also to keep myself honest as to where the lurker could be, um, lurking.

Is there an artful way to manage this? And more generally, how should I play lurkers in the first place? And how should I design encounters containing them?

 

[Nullzone]

If the creature actually stealths and takes on the Hidden condition, then I remove the mini from the grid and leave no marker behind. People had best been paying attention when it was taken away if they want to know his last known position

Note however that just vanishing doesn't automatically grant this. All creatures know where all other creatures are unless they are Hidden. Invisible makes Hidden really easy since Invisible grants total concealment, but it's an important distinction. So the idea is that you can hear the creature moving about or otherwise leaving some telltale signs of its presence enough to know what space it occupies, but it's still really hard to hit because you can't physically see it.

As for tracking his movement while Hidden, often times I have a minimap in my notes, so I use that, or just keep mental note of where he is. I never include more than 1 or 2 Lurkers so it's easy enough (and more than that would get deadly in a real hurry as well).

 

[Badwe]

I often flub lurkers as well. I find it best to cheat at least a little bit, although if you have rules-lawyery players like mine, they may figure out that it's impossible for your lurkers to have gone a certain way.

As to the actual rules, it works like this: if your lurker turns invisible, the party still knows where they are but can't take opportunity attacks and hit at a -5 penalty unless using area of effect. If, as part of a move action, the lurker makes a stealth check and beats everyone's passive perception, then the monster is hidden and the players don't know which sqaure he occupies. If everyone is fooled by the monster, I feel that's a good time to pull him off the table. If only some of the players are fooled... maybe just say everyone was. I had a player who was very focused on stealth and I allowed him to do the same thing: if he fooled every monster then he could pick up his mini and record the steps the character takes until he attacks.

Next, on the turn of the person who is trying to find a hidden creature, they make a perception check as a minor action to locate exactly which square the creature is in.



Now, these are rules as written. The main thing that I strive to accomplish with lurkers is an ebb and flow: a lurker should open with a surprising and highly damaging attack, then have a reason to slink away either immediately or after 1 more attack (ie his turns were move->attack, attack->move) to try to hide again and wait for an opportune moment. There are at least a few ways this is done via monster design: effects that deal extra damage for combat advantage or for striking from invisibility, effects that have a long recharge paired with escape mechanics, or an attack that only recharges when you use the hidey move, or a 2-stage isolating effect (ie: crocodile bite grabs target, then can only clamp down on grabbed target, best to drag them away). Basically, whatever way you can create that "every other turn" effect will really promote the lurker.

 

[OnlineDM]

I agree with the earlier posters - if a monster becomes Hidden (that is, gets out of sight and makes a Stealth check that beats everyone's passive Perception), then remove his mini from the board. I get to cheat and do this the easy way in my games, since I use MapTool with a projector and I can just toggle the monster's visibility (so I can still see him on my screen, but he doesn't show up on the table).

Do remember that if the monster makes a Stealth check to hide at the end of a move in which he moved more than 2 squares, the check is at -5. I failed to notice that rule when I first started using Stealth, and some monsters ended up being Hidden when they really shouldn't have been.

 

[Neverfate]

Most of my meager contributions lately have been bitching about Essentials, which isn't terribly representative of my thoughts on the game. I love 4E! I bitch because I love! So I'm starting a thread where I, uh, actually talk about the game, rather than stoking flames.

Anyways. I'm statting up some monsters for an ambush encounter, and I figure there should probably be a lurker or two. Lurkers, though, get shafted at our table (and not just when I'm DMing) because none of us know how to run them. More broadly, we don't know how to handle stealth at all. I know the rules for stealth, but I don't know what to do when one of my baddies employs them. Do I remove his mini from the grid? Do I leave it there with an unhelpful "But you guys can't see him!" reminder? If I do remove it from the grid, how best to keep track of where it is?

My favorite idea is to have a token with a question mark on it to replace the lurker once it stealths - to remind my players "Hey where'd he go?" and also to keep myself honest as to where the lurker could be, um, lurking.

Is there an artful way to manage this? And more generally, how should I play lurkers in the first place? And how should I design encounters containing them?

Good questions. I think everyone will have slightly different answers depending on their DMing style.

The way I set up my maps is that I always have a scale version in my graph paper note book so that I can get a frame of reference for unseen traps/hazards or to mark off creatures that have hidden or other unexposed features of the battlefield. This allows me to check off where the creature is hidden on particular large or complex maps (or if I just forget). If it is a map from an adventure/book you don't want to write in, a photocopy should work.

Also, aside from being hidden, it's important to stock an encounter effectively so that a Lurker's presence makes sense, it isn't the focal point of combat, but leaves just enough incentive to be found and defeated.

Lurker's should be doing a huge nova attack, then spend a round or 2 hiding and waiting/recharging. So you have to balance them around that feature. Too few other creatures on the map for your PCs to get distracted by and they'll hunt down the Lurker all too easily. Too many adversaries to distract them and the Lurker very well may go Friday the 13th style on them, killing them one by one.

One thing I like to do is have a deadly Lurker not necessarily be on the villains team, but have it live in the encounter's map. Attacking indiscriminately/determined via die rolls. This may allow you more time to position and hide the Lurker as your party discovers it's not necessary to defeat. This allows your players to avoid it by pushing through their enemies faster and leaving the encounter (perhaps even using it to their advantage while they push through/escape). It's an interesting dynamic, but not necessary to effectively (and honestly) run a Lurker.

Hope this gives you some insights!

 

[the Jester]

If a creature vanishes from sight, heck yeah I pull the mini off! To help myself track where it is, I set it in a strategic position off the encounter but still on the battlemat, usually in line with one axis of its location (the harder one to track).

Lurkers in general are kinda weird though- they should fade in and out of the battle, sometimes even taking off to get reinforcements or to flee if it's obvious that the jig is up, or following the party until there's a good time to strike them again. I'm not very good at running lurkers either, to be honest.

 

[Quickleaf]

Anyways. I'm statting up some monsters for an ambush encounter, and I figure there should probably be a lurker or two. Lurkers, though, get shafted at our table (and not just when I'm DMing) because none of us know how to run them.

What kinds of monsters are we talking here?

More broadly, we don't know how to handle stealth at all. I know the rules for stealth, but I don't know what to do when one of my baddies employs them. Do I remove his mini from the grid? Do I leave it there with an unhelpful "But you guys can't see him!" reminder? If I do remove it from the grid, how best to keep track of where it is?

It depends on the monster...If the PCs have pinpointed it (or its a PC doing the hiding), I take one of those plastic dice boxes and flip it over the mini to designate its hidden/invisible... If they saw it then lost track of it, I'll remove the miniature from the grid and (depending on the situation) I may leave a "?" token behind.. If they haven't spotted it at all, then no mini of course... And if two PCs have conflicting Perception checks I sometimes throw down multiple miniatures as possible locations (especially with doppelgangers or enemies with displacement).

My favorite idea is to have a token with a question mark on it to replace the lurker once it stealths - to remind my players "Hey where'd he go?" and also to keep myself honest as to where the lurker could be, um, lurking.

Don't worry about being strictly "honest." Hidden creatures don't provoke AoO, you can assume they don't enter dangerous terrain, and don't travel more than twice their speed. Just have a strategy in mind and improvise. In my mind, that's more "honest" to the idea of a lurker.

Is there an artful way to manage this? And more generally, how should I play lurkers in the first place? And how should I design encounters containing them?

With lurkers don't play your cards at once. During the first round they move into position and assess the PCs, taking advantage of any routes to attack the 'rear line'. Also a lurker should have an escape route if things get hairy. Multiple lurkers are especially effective when they switch off, making the PCs think it's all the same monster somehow traversing great distances when in fact it's two monsters. Once they figure out the lurker's tactic have it go into hiding until close to the end of the fight when it (a) goes for a weak or downed PC, or (b) flees to the next room.

 

[Destil]

You just have to not post. It's easy! Watch I'll show yo...



...damn it.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

For you GMs who remove Lurkers when they're Hidden from all of the PCs, do you allow the players to do the same if their PCs become Hidden from all of the NPCs?

 

[Nullzone]

I might if I trust the player and there's no terrain hazards or other positional requirements, but for public games, no. I play the monster intelligence appropriately and generally just break off the hidden target unless the monster has some very specific reason to attempt pursuit.