I enjoy clerics without gods

[Cor Azer]

My current face-to-face game is running without specific deities. Still, the cultures of most regions include some form of faith and religious behaviour - but such preach moreos about being good to your neighbors, raise your family properly, et cetera. Evil clerics, when organized, are more like cults than organized churches.

In fact, churches and temples are moreso political organizations, community leaders, and general care-takers. Any person can freely worship in any church/temple, so long as they bring no harm to others inside the church building and surrounding area.

Still, there are plenty of areas where specific domains are common amongst the clerics - the now freed elves of the long-enslaved Elven Forest generally have the Plant and Sun domains - the perpetual twilight during their enslavement by undead has whithered their forest, and the clerics strive to repair that damage.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I think that one of the greatest additions to DnD in 3.0 was the idea that clerics could gain power from a force or philosophy.

Interesting. You do realise that, in 3E, these are called "sources" and "causes".

Forces and philosophies are the terms used for them in the 2E Complete Handbook of Priests.

 

[diaglo]

godless clerics existed in OD&D (1974). this isn't a new concept.

edit: clerics received spells from the divine. but they didn't have to follow one god. they could worship the whole pantheon of "Law", "Chaos", or "Neutrality".

gods existed. and people were aware of them. they may have even given them names. but clerics didn't have to worship just one.

 

[WayneLigon]

I would like a world where a cleric of culture #1 follows Rathnar the Destroyer and a cleric of culture #2 follows the teachings of Guzmat and Futhno, and both clerics claim their gods created the universe.

You might want to look at some of the RuneQuest/Hero Quest diety stuff; it all works exactly like that. They have incarnate gods, abstract philosophies, atheists, spirit/totem/anthropomorphic stuff all in the same world, all making the same claim.

And because of how the separation of Time and Godtime works, they are all correct.

 

[Psion]

Don't like it. Didn't mind forces and philosophies from 2e, but I always sort of pictured them as impersonal but real forces. A deity does not need to have some human personification to be a deity AFAIAC.

What I absolutely do not brook is the concept of your own faith driving divine spells. AFAIAC, that's psionics, not divine magic, and we already have a system for that.

I am sort of living under the direct faith thing as Second World uses it. But I sort of justify it to myself by the idea that (as is part of the Second World Cosmology) there is an ideal form associated with that faith concept, albeit possibly impersonal, which is the real driving force behind the divine magic.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Interesting. You do realise that, in 3E, these are called "sources" and "causes".

Forces and philosophies are the terms used for them in the 2E Complete Handbook of Priests.

You found me out. I played 2E.


But besides that...it is now "official" and "core" instead of stuck inside a splatbook.

Thus, I love the idea, but I agree that the execution has often been poorly done as it makes power gamers twitch with the chance to pick and choose from the full set of domains.

True that. However, nothing is stopping the DM (or a campaign setting) from forcing a player to define their source or cause (and define what domains that cause grants.)

In 3e Deities and Demigods, the Academy in the Greek pantheon is an example of this. I would of liked some examples in the PHB such as this one.

Don't like it.

Can't argue with that.

What I absolutely do not brook is the concept of your own faith driving divine spells. AFAIAC, that's psionics, not divine magic, and we already have a system for that.

Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind's potential.

Some would disagree that the two are the same. But that is just semantics.

 

[hong]

I hear what you are saying. Honestly I have a big problem with the "no god" concept. Everytime I've seen it used its by a powergamer who wants a free pick of domains.

The best solution to this would be to ban overpowered domains (Magic and Travel are probably the biggest ones), not remove the option of a free choice. After all, it's not like there aren't any gods who grant overpowered domains.

 

[Psion]

This thread looks sort of funny with Hellhound doing the timewarp...

 

[Henry]

From my standpoint, I don't like them, especially with "vanilla" D&D, but don't really have an active dislike of the concept.

I get that it reintroduces the whole "my gods are better than your gods" concept, but past that, it feels sort of... empty to me. Very hard to explain. It gives back the conflict of cultures, but it would seem to take away the give-and-take relationship that is between a cleric and his god. How can one disagree with "a force", or have a relationship with "a philosophy"? It's why I always focused more on the "Jedi Code" aspect of the Jedi in Star Wars, than the "will of the force" aspect. Ultimately, the "will of the force" is your own will, and you're basically just using a superpower, rather than following what's "right or wrong." (It's why I hated the conclusion of the New Jedi Order, also. )

 

[Humanophile]

I have to side with Psion here, on two counts.

First, I like the fantasy conceit that gods are, well, gods. Divine intervention should be something appropriately epic and jaw-dropping, and diluting divine flavor just feels off to me. Muddying their status, either to pantheon oversaturation or agnosticism, feels thematically out-of-place in D&D. Not saying it's not doable, just that the flavor has to be just so. (That's also part of the reason I dislike clerics, they make the divine too predictable and accessable, but that's a rant for another thread. And all this coming from a real-life athiest.)

Second, even if personal faith powers clerical spellcasting, there's the whole Mage: the Ascension pardigm thing. The monk, psion, and (to some extent) arcane casters feel a lot more like "by my will, so it is done" types than the cleric does. You may have strong personal beliefs, but it'd be harder to see yourself calling down holy fire, tap the force of Life Itself, or contact a soul at its final resting place on your own than if your buddy Jesus (or Odin, or Pelor) was helping you. Seeing yourself perform incredible feats (monk), easy. Turning your raw force of will into physical elements/forces (psionics/arcane magic), harder, but still able to see yourself doing. But belief in certain underlying elements makes given "magics" easier or harder, and just as someone who feels a deep affanity for elemental air would probably have an easier time flying, someone who believed in a god would be... well, aspected towards certain miracle-type effects. (And that's ignoring any help the god might actually give.)