D&D 5E I figured out why all 5e ship rules suck

[Voi_D_ragon]

It's hard enough to make a passable naval combat system.

It's basically impossible to make a passable naval combat system that is still recognizably D&D and is also close enough and simple enough to pick up that WotC would print it, seeing their "we want d&d to be accessible to new players and not scare them away with lots of different rules with very specific applications" design philosophy (which is fine and has worked very well for them).

(Un) fortunately, I am not WotC, and have none of their qualms making a system that you can slap onto the one they have created so I can scratch my age of sail naval battle itch.

This is very much a work in progress, but I'm hoping to at least gather some feedback here on how to word the rules as less of a clustermess and how to group them together in a way that makes more sense, since right now it seems to me like important rules that interact with each other consistently are explained too far apart. Also, any values you see will absolutely not be balanced right now.

Anyway, here's my take on writing some ship rules that loosely tie into 5e: Ship rules 4 Feedback

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Nice presentation!

I'm at lunch reading on a phone so couldn't really do a proper deep dive on the system, but from what I gather you did a more detailed version of what I usually do when creating custom modules for DnD. I usually try to make a unit (whatever unit means based on the scale of encounter) reflect as much as possible the rules for a character on the combat grid.

Some thoughts on what I'd like to see (may be included in your system already, will read detail later)

1. Different size ships reflect different sized bases (sloop=small, galleon=Huge.

2. Small ships more maneuverable.

3. Wind direction (you certainly had this)

4. How does magic work with the system. In our pirate hunting themed campaign my storm sorcerer was also the captain and used many spells to influence sailing in combat.

Looks good!

 

[CleverNickName]

For my upcoming campaign, I am using like the naval combat rules in "Seas of Vodari," by Tribality Games. The rules aren't perfect (and none ever are), but they look like they're going to be a good fit for the swashbuckling, Age of Sail vibes I'm going for. Time will tell.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Looks great. I would say that it's a step more complicated than I would prefer (and WotC's version is two or three steps not quite complicated enough.) I'd love to see a "basic" version of what you have here. I'm not sure what it would look like, but I may give it a go if I find the time. Great work!

 

[Tonguez]

Looks good for the Captain

But what do the other characters do while the ship is manoeuvring? The boatswain and Navigator and other officers seem redundant

 

[Willie the Duck]

Looks as good as most of what I've seen. Good job.

It's hard enough to make a passable naval combat system.

It's basically impossible to make a passable naval combat system that is still recognizably D&D and is also close enough and simple enough to pick up that WotC would print it, seeing their "we want d&d to be accessible to new players and not scare them away with lots of different rules with very specific applications" design philosophy (which is fine and has worked very well for them).

I think another fundamental problem is that it isn't clear what people want out of a ship system for a D&D or similar game. Even if the entire campaign is about being on ships, and maybe the ship is the party's #1 focus and valued possession, the dominant unit of focus for each player is likely to be their character. So you probably want your character to be a major contributor to success or failure in any ship-based endeavor (combat or otherwise). You may fee unhappy about the ship sinking out from under you and your character dying (as would make sense in a naval wargame, where your ships are your primary units of focus)-- even if it is still your character's actions or rolls or the like which determine when that happens. Most of all, I don't know if everyone is on the same page as to what ships should be doing -- should ship combat be the biggest factor, or are they mostly means of transport and that the focus? Should it be ships trying to sink other ships like age-of-sail warfare might focus upon, or are they mostly for getting the PCs, sailors, monsters, etc. to each other (boarding or ship as battlemap) with only some ballista and such as armaments? Beyond that, what are you even trying to do with a ship? Does having a larger hold for more supplies, treasure, or trading goods sound like a perk or not (given how desperate the thought on the resources/survival aspect of D&D, what good money has after a certain point, and whether anyone wants to play as merchants and tradespersons; it's hard for there to be a unifying vision for doing so but-in-a-boat).

 

[Stormonu]

I’ve only glanced at it, but so far looks good.

It might be worth considering reversing the “Points off Heading” though, with Aft having the lowest number and Bow having the highest. In combat, you could then use the Points off Heading to determine your movement rate - with the wind to your Aft, you get 1 to 1 movement points, while as you turn into the wind it costs more and more to head into the prevailing wind. For example, if the wind is directly to Port or Starboard, your “Points off Heading” of 2 may mean that for every 2 points of Wind Strength, you would only move 1 (or you subtract 2 from your speed?). With the Bow being “Points off Heading” of 4, you would only move forward 1 (assuming some kind of tacking is happening) for every 4 points of Wind Strength.

Also, this came up in a Spelljammer thread - what if someone wants to target the crew, sails, helm or something else on the ship besides the hull (in case they want to cripple instead of sink the ship)? Is this something you want to consider, possibly with a “hit location” table?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Looks as good as most of what I've seen. Good job.


I think another fundamental problem is that it isn't clear what people want out of a ship system for a D&D or similar game. Even if the entire campaign is about being on ships, and maybe the ship is the party's #1 focus and valued possession, the dominant unit of focus for each player is likely to be their character. So you probably want your character to be a major contributor to success or failure in any ship-based endeavor (combat or otherwise). You may fee unhappy about the ship sinking out from under you and your character dying (as would make sense in a naval wargame, where your ships are your primary units of focus)-- even if it is still your character's actions or rolls or the like which determine when that happens. Most of all, I don't know if everyone is on the same page as to what ships should be doing -- should ship combat be the biggest factor, or are they mostly means of transport and that the focus? Should it be ships trying to sink other ships like age-of-sail warfare might focus upon, or are they mostly for getting the PCs, sailors, monsters, etc. to each other (boarding or ship as battlemap) with only some ballista and such as armaments? Beyond that, what are you even trying to do with a ship? Does having a larger hold for more supplies, treasure, or trading goods sound like a perk or not (given how desperate the thought on the resources/survival aspect of D&D, what good money has after a certain point, and whether anyone wants to play as merchants and tradespersons; it's hard for there to be a unifying vision for doing so but-in-a-boat).

Good observations. Some people might want Sailing Ship Simulator (like for a pirate campaign) involving holds, cargo, trade routes,upkeep, etc.

Others might just want Ship Battle Tactics.

Good way to do one or both would be to write those as two separate rule sets but have the data intercompatible.

Kind of like how the old WEG Star Wars game had miniatures tabletop rules and starship combat game rules that would allow you to import your RPG character into the other systems.

 

[TheSword]

It's hard enough to make a passable naval combat system.

It's basically impossible to make a passable naval combat system that is still recognizably D&D and is also close enough and simple enough to pick up that WotC would print it, seeing their "we want d&d to be accessible to new players and not scare them away with lots of different rules with very specific applications" design philosophy (which is fine and has worked very well for them).

(Un) fortunately, I am not WotC, and have none of their qualms making a system that you can slap onto the one they have created so I can scratch my age of sail naval battle itch.

This is very much a work in progress, but I'm hoping to at least gather some feedback here on how to word the rules as less of a clustermess and how to group them together in a way that makes more sense, since right now it seems to me like important rules that interact with each other consistently are explained too far apart. Also, any values you see will absolutely not be balanced right now.

Anyway, here's my take on writing some ship rules that loosely tie into 5e: Ship rules 4 Feedback

Nice rules and nice presentation. I really like it. However…

… it won’t work for D&D 5e. Simply because people don’t want to go to the trouble of learning a system that suitably captures the tactics and majesty of ship to ship combat.

I ran a skull and shackles campaign for pathfinder and used the ship rules in from the excellent razor coast setting. A book designed for dynamic ship combat that involved all the party as your system does.

Unfortunately the players just couldn’t be arsed… it was simpler and more satisfying for them to just ram the ship - board it, and kill whoever was controlling the ship. It didn’t matter if it was a small a Aspice Consortium slave ship or a giant Cheliaxian Galleon. Board and attack. Ship to Ship combat doesn’t give players the tactical flexibility to use the full range of their character abilities so it just isn’t as satisfying to the players as a straight up combat would be. Sad but true.

Maybe you have the one in a thousand groups that wants to enjoy the mini game of it, as I hoped my group would. Unfortunately I doubt it.

I’d love to be a player in a game that makes me feel like I’m staring in Master and Commander though.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I find that what works for my group is to make the ship a tool the players use to do thier players character stuff, rather than really it’s own thing.

5e already does this a little bit with how the ship takes actions, but I go further, and do stuff like if a character is at the helm and they have a speed bonus, the ship gets a speed bonus. If the Battlemaster is manning the mangonel, they can use manuevers with it and treat ships as enemies and allies. The Rogue can sneak attack a ship. Etc.

Then since I run a more magitech advanced game, ships can emplacement crystals that are beefed up wands, and extend the range and increase damage of spells cast through them.

i think 5e is within an arrow shot of a good naval gameplay system.